pleroma.debian.social

pleroma.debian.social

Hot take: good riddance. I dislike the middle click thing. Trips me up all the time as someone who accidentally clicks it when scrolling.

I think the right move is to make this (undoubtedly useful to some) behavior opt-in, not opt-out.

A lot of the gripes I see are just people being mad because GNOME makes choices they don't like. I don't understand why people write like this about GNOME, if you don't like it don't use it, your emotions make you look petty, etc etc.

https://www.theregister.com/2026/01/07/gnome_middle_click_paste/

@vkc I also hate middle click. It's only useful on a three-button mouse.

The way the article is written. The way the comments talk about it.

Why do people make it sound like GNOME is some sort of secret cabal of Linux haters?

It's a freaking desktop environment, they have every right to build it however they want, and you have every right to use something different. There's zero reason to get emotionally charged about it.

@vkc

I can see the argument for making it opt-in, but it isn't simply paste, it's kind of a second clipboard. I use it extensively and would hate if it was removed completely.

@fennix AFAIK nobody's proposing that. On the other hand, it's a tripping hazard for folks new to Linux.

To me the proposal makes complete sense: disable by default and allow someone to opt in (via extension or some other toggle).

@vkc it has been so long since I have had a three button mouse (with no scroll wheel) I forgot about that default from ancient history… back when the middle button was not also the scroll wheel it worked for me.. but not in .. the past 25 years?

@scanner it trips my scroll wheel all the time, I'll be scrolling and I'll suddenly accidentally insert some text from who knows where into a form field or something.

@vkc I never had a problem with the middle click till I got a Thinkpad, but boy, oh boy, is it ever annoying me now. Pastes all over the place.

Anyway, if you like GNOME and their design concepts, you're awesome and totally a valid user of Linux.

Sick of the absurd nonsense that says otherwise.

@vkc Yeah, I can totally see that. The world has changed when the scroll was added (and is also a button)

@trezzer ugh that's the worst!

@vkc maybe they got bored of ranting about Apple

@vkc not when you have muscle memory going back to the 1980s with middle click

not when the distro(s) you like have it as the default desktop

not when the other desktops are just a heap of no

Gnome tried to get rid of icons on the desktop a few years ago. User pressure brought them back (admittedly through some pretty foul shell hacks)

In this period, in this timeline, at this moment, maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't talk about *desktop environment design disagreements* like they're causing deep emotional harm?

@vkc it's framed in obvious inflammatory rhetoric, and also "because X11 did it that way" is a total non-reason for nuking a feature common to graphical unices since the 1980s. But yes, I agree, they're free to do whatever they want in their little playground! GNOME has been pushing through the boundaries of sensible user interface design for quite a while now. Nothing new there.

@thomasfuchs UnUSaBLe

@vkc the fear is that after being disabled by default, it will eventually be removed entirely.

I can understand being frustrated by accidental triggering, especially with the new fast scrolling super clicky mouse wheels.

I specifically buy a mouse that doesn't do this because I'm left-handed and copy paste almost exclusively with the middle button.

As a lefty, middle-click paste is a godsend. Otherwise, I have to move off the mouse to the keyboard and back.

@scruss no. Don't get emotionally charged about it.

It's a design choice. Your emotions shouldn't matter, just choose something different. Run a command to add the feature back.

I'm not saying don't have opinions. I'm saying, emphatically, that getting emotionally charged about it is, in fact, a bad thing.

@vkc and it is a default setting, it can be flipped back on.

@vkc 😏 if you say so

@theodric it's just a desktop, no need to get insulting

@vkc True that! Having said that I'd like to spend a disproportionate amount of time, not to talk, but to argue with you about rounded corners 😉

@vkc I started using computers when it was still the users who had to adapt. I kept that mentality throughout the years.

@vkc
edit: one typo

Because Linux and the graphic environments are so good that people need something to complain.
I don't like Gnome, I prefer Mate, XFCE or KDE, but, the most important is we have choice to install them, and configure them like we want.

I would like there is a middle clic in LibreOffice when you unselected text to past. Dev answered it depend on system.

@dcbaok I don't understand why you fear it being disabled entirely?

In GNOME at least, there's a billion extensions for fixing things, and a feature this popular almost certainly can't be gotten rid of completely.

I think that fear is irrational considering the actual proposal and the reality of how Linux is made.

@vkc

Yeah, some of those reactions are over the top. But middle click paste really is a great feature. If Gnome does away with it, I hope somebody adds it back via an extension, and fast.

With any luck, the Gnome devs will read the room for once and abandon that idea.

@vkc I have two professional mentors who both insist on using Enlightenment like it's still 2003. I don't know how or why, but that's the beauty of Linux that you can.

@vkc I've been using i3 and Sway for years, and I'm now using Gnome almost exclusively.

Do I miss tiling windows and extreme customizability from time to time? Sure.

But what I don't miss is spending hours at a time trying to get apps to deal with the window manager aggressively resizing them, or getting screen sharing or screenshots to work.

Like they say: Choose the right tool for the job. Use something user-friendly if that's your focus. If you want raw hack value, use something else. 🤷‍♂️

@bruce I really don't think it can be "done away with" logistically, more likely would be hidden behind an extension or a Tweaks toggle (which IMO is a reasonable compromise).

Too many people like the feature for it to be in any real danger.

@vkc I was addicted to middle-click paste for most of my computing history, but then I switched to a trackball due to RSI, and the habit mostly ended immediately (as the middle mouse button isn't in the middle anymore, so there's no muscle memory).

I guess it depends on what replaces it, as to whether it'll surprise me and make me angry some day. Autoscroll would be a terrible thing to happen to the middle mouse button. But, I guess as long as I can configure it, I don't care that much.

@scy big same. I mostly alternate between Plasma and GNOME based on what task I'm doing on what machine. Both are great, both have rough spots.

@vkc

Come to think of it, right click is redundant, too. We should go full Apple and just have one button mice, and use the alt key for everything. People love that.

@vkc

I don't normally get emotional about these things, but one thing Gnome did that negatively affected myself and others, I think unnecessarily, was not making GTK3 backwards compatible. That rendered a whole suite of very good audio plugin GUIs (Calf) obsolete. And I think the original developer has abandoned the project, so they may never get updated. (Not sure if I got all the details right there but that's the outcome.)

@vkc This is unfortunately expected from Liam Proven, same guy who gave us an "amazing" article lying that KDE/GNOME/Wayland developers, as a whole, do not care about accessibility, whos whole output to the Linux community has been shitty ignorant article after shitty ignorant article

He is, in the nicest way possible, a hack writer and one of those "anti-DEI" assholes, But what do I know, im just one of those evil GNOME devs making linux evil and woke for my own profit

@zoeyTheWitch ugh, I'm sorry for the crap you all put up with. FWIW I love GNOME and use it regularly.

@vkc Good. I also hope they get rid of the insert button triggering overwrite-mode, which I've seen trip people up even on Windows.
Although when they switch defaults like this, it might be nice to ask the user the first time if they want to keep it.
Emacs does a really cool thing actually, where if you use a disabled key combo it asks you if you meant to use that feature and whether you want to enable it or disable the key binding completely.

@vkc I'm more of a lightweight window manager kind of guy (my favorite is dwm since it works how I like), but GNOME is a great choice of desktop environment in my eyes if you want a streamlined and simple workflow. Personally though, for DEs, I'm more into LXDE and KDE, but Linux is all about choice and everyone should use whatever works best for them :)

@bruce is that what I said? How are you reading any of that from what I said?

It's a proposal to change a setting which is known to trip folks up and cause issues. To make something "opt-in" instead of foisted on folks. Many, many mice put the middle click in the scroll wheel and it causes headaches for some.

It's a reasonable proposal to be debated, and making it sound like GNOME is some sort of anti-user cabal is just silly at best, malicious at worst.

@vkc

Hmm. I thought the "people love that" line would have been enough of a clue that I was being facetious, but I guess not. Sorry. It was meant as a (apparently bad) joke.

@vkc I don't know that it will ever happen, and yes the fear may not be rational, but if it becomes a second-class feature who's to say what future bug will be deemed too difficult to fix, and then the feature axed entirely.

That being said I'm not out yelling about it, just watching from the sidelines. These are the first comments I've made about it.

As for Gnome extensions... suffice it to say I've had my share of bad experiences with them, they can be pretty janky.

@bruce sorry I misread you, I have folks actually being kind of jerks in some of these replies so it's hard to filter facetiousness from everything else.

@vkc I agree with all said. Honestly, I haven't used the middle-click paste **on purpose** a single time in my whole life.

@scruss @vkc Others have different muscle memory (and mental models of clipboards) and my guess is that they outnumber old-school Unix users at least 10 to 1.

@vkc

I understand. As we all know, rapid-fire text responses often lack the subtleties we might like. I could have thought more about that reply before sending.

@vkc I'm not particularly plussed about middle click paste going away but that article is not okay.

I for one would like changes in behaviour of software to be done extremely purposefully and rarely and come with usability studies and solid data backing up it being an improvement, but I don't think that not happening warrants the level of hatred currently poured on GNOME (… again blobcatnotlikethis) either way.

@vkc There is history.

What fuels the anger is the annoyance at the lack of reflection within Gnome of its role in the failure of desktop Linux.

Most notably it's insular design choices in Gnome 3, and the early shipment of that non-ready software, reducing Linux's share of the market from MacOS levels to a third of that.

Today, yet another insular design choice by Gnome. Of course people are going to give them stick. Even if it's a good decision.

@glent "its role in the failure of desktop Linux"

That's a GIGANTIC assumption. And is insulting to the hard working people who work on GNOME, many of whom had nothing to do with those so-called "insular design choices".

It's open source, you can't force a team to do things your way. GNOME's foundation led to wonderful projects like Cinnamon, and I'd argue that the diversification has been a strength.

IMO it's all needless harping on folks who have different opinions.

@vkc
I've used Linux since 1995. I use it personally for fun, and I've used it professionally for 30 years, incuding some of the largest computers on earth. And I've used middle-click for that entire time.

I love using Gnome, *because* it doesn't overwhelm me with options. It gets out of the way. And I think removing middle-click is the right decision. The utility just isn't worth the confusion - two clipboards and accidental middle-clicks still confuse me.

@vkc They do have a history of breaking workflows for no good reason. My first thought was "they are going to drop support for it in the future and then I'm going to have to find a new DE again, what a headache".

Of course they have the right to do whatever they please but it shouldn't be surprising that the existing users whose lives it makes more difficult will complain.

Whether they always hit the right tone with their complaints is another matter, to be sure.

@vkc I agree about making it opt-in, but given the legacy they ought to show it in the settings app not in some config file. If you upgrade your OS and it doesn't work like it's always worked before, it's reasonable to expect you could look in the mouse settings next to cursor and scroll speed

@vkc I won't miss the middle click at all. And I started on twm back in the 90's! Just another instance of a crappy click bait article 🤦‍♂️

@vkc thanks for illustrating my point.

@vkc Agreed. Although I wish wayland actually cared about accessibility

@vkc totally agree, i usually listen this type of hate from Linux desktop gatekeepers. Looks like a sect

@vkc Oh ffs no! Middle click under X has never meant "Paste". It has always meant "Insert the Primary Selection here". Any change to this will break my workflow. For those of you who, for youth or for newness, have no idea what I'm talking about, this is a good write up: https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html

@glent what?

@rappscal I tend to agree, put it in the settings app, *and* I'd argue that the best behavior would be to only disable it on fresh installs, not change it on an upgrade (I don't know how feasible that is, I'm not a GNOME dev).

@vkc I love the middle click, I've been using it for about 26 years, and I think its one of my favourite features. I'll be annoyed if it goes away.

I'm totally ok with making it optional...

@vkc I got annoyed regularly by middle click back in fuckin 1997, I’m glad others hate it too

@vkc hear hear!

@vkc Middle-click paste is one of those "weird Unix" interaction things that really requires other "weird Unix" things to work well, namely focus-follows-mouse and the concept of an X11-like selection mechanism.

It broke when scrollwheels took over the middle button.

It broke when you slipped while bringing a window to the front, thus causing a selection in *that* other window, and thus losing the selection from the first one that you intended to middle-paste.

I loved it in 1996; not anymore.

@vkc every time I interact with the GNOME developers the way I interact with normal parts of the open source community (i.e., come to collaborate, bearing patches and bug reports, seeking to improve the software), I am met with inexplicable rancor and disrespect. everyone knows GNOME for this pattern of user-hostility. that's why people are emotionally charged

@vkc Oh…my…gosh. I've never liked GNOME (or KDE). But so 🤬 what? My spouse, who is not a programmer, has enjoyed every version of GNOME since 1999 & a Linux-based system has been her primary desktop for decades.

I'm vaguely aware that *yet again*; like some kind of clockwork, the world wants to 💩-post about for the 2ⁿ-th time.

I gave this keynote 10 years ago directed at these haters; I'm sad it's still relevant,though.

https://sfconservancy.org/videos/2016-08-12_Bradley-Kuhn_GUADEC-2016_Keynote.webm

Cc: @federicomena @ebassi @karen

@vkc

I'm old enough to remember this behavior dating back to at least CDE on traditional Unix systems like Solaris in the mid-90s, if not earlier. It was a great feature then.

BUT...

That was back when mice looked like this! They had a literal middle mouse button. This design predated the scroll wheel, which was added much later, and merged in as an extremely awkward and unreliable middle mouse button in some cases. The old behaviors make no sense anymore, at least not as default behaviors for most users with modern mice.

Sun Microsystems mouse with three mouse buttons and no scroll wheel.

@bkuhn @vkc @federicomena @ebassi @karen Funny I just posted almost exactly the same thing a few hours ago.

These people are crazy and should really get a life

@vkc I'm one of the weird people who actually liked Gnome Shell when it first was released, and I still use it now. I also cut my baby Unix teeth using SunOS on Sparc stations in the early/mid 90's with X11, landing on fvwm as my wm of choice (I still miss middle click root context menus). I love middle click paste and I suspect that if it does get removed from Gnome core, somebody will build an extension to add it back. It's the beauty and curse of F/OSS: a myriad of options.

@vkc I'm not a fan of GNOME because it doesn't work for me but for some it does. Whats great about Linux is the choice. I love using DWM but many don't. Thats fine.

@vkc well I use it quite much, often to copy 2 things at once, like both URL and text to avoid another round trip to another window.

But then I use KDE, so…

@vkc I'm a heavy user of "middle click to paste" so I'd definitely be annoyed if it were removed. Having it opt-in is something I can live with.

I was similarly annoyed when "start typing to jump to a file in Nautilus" was removed and have in fact installed a patched version in some machines to add it back.

That said, I'm a big fan of GNOME's focus on design in general and I think it's great that they're revisiting what an interface *can* be like rather than just following along with old ideas

@vkc probably getting too close to the year now, but I normally recommend GNOME to people who want a "what did desktop and mobile computing look like in 2030" experience 😉

I've also been surprised to see GNOME features pop up in places like Android and Windows from time to time. Of course, since I use GNOME much more it doesn't necessarily mean the other people copied all of them; maybe they had some of them before but I just noticed it in GNOME first. Either way, the ideas are all very neat

@vkc and let's not forget that they're now looking mobile-wards too. I wouldn't be surprised if GNOME's focus on responsive design helped make more well-running friendly programs too! (Not to discount the enormous efforts Phosh themselves have put in of course)

@bruce @vkc

Middle click was a feature inherited from X11, and so I think they were thinking of disabling it under wayland because it's somewhat surprising behavior for new users.

I think I saw someone say there'd be an option to turn it back on.

@vkc GNOME does have a fairly long history of being the tail that wags the dog; a lot of the freedesktop.org stuff that made desktop environments objectively worse in measurable ways ... came from GNOME, and was rammed through because it had the funding and distro backing. For example, it used to be that if you asked for a 12 pt font, you got a font that was actually 12/72 of an inch baseline spacing on your actual monitor ... but now you don't, and that's absolutely on GNOME.

@vkc there's probably a need for a fork of Gtk. Reading "Gnome will make this opt in" feels like "this will become deprecated and then disappear entirely for people who aren't even using Gnome".

@vkc This theory is only half baked but I think there’s something around user-centric design and misogyny; that a thoughtfully organized, aesthetically appealing environment (e.g. whining about there’s too much white space in GTK4/Adwaita apps) that takes away needless complexity and endless configuration choices is inherently inferior, pussified. The article takes a very “back in my day” tone that’s on the same continuum: the old way is the right way cos I’m scared of new things and young people and progress.

It’s all so exhausting. Just use i3 on Arch ffs

@vkc @vkc @vkc I don’t like gnome out of the box but with a few shell extensions here and there it’s the best DE out there. I like how it looks and feels infinitely better than windows. To me gnome is the second best looking UI after macOS.
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@vkc

that's why sometimes i have the copied text randomly pasted when i scroll around! i never figured it out in 15 years of using Linux. i thought it's just a weird bug.

@vkc Before all these discussions, I didn't really have an opinion on the matter, but on reflection, opt-in doesn't seem like an unreasonable option https://mastodon.tedomum.net/@lebout2canap/115854119364697065. But getting back to your point, with this message, it was the first time I disabled reposts with comments, the debate had gotten so out of hand.

RT: https://mastodon.tedomum.net/users/lebout2canap/statuses/115854119364697065

@vkc While I personally like this feature, I do think there should be some way to make people at least aware of this feature. I found out about it accidentally and fortunately KDE clipboard settings is very customisable with this. Been using it happily.

And I guess GNOME can do whatever they want, but it kinda felt weird when firefox was brought into this. In my experience the feature works only on input fields, so stuff like middle click drag to scroll or opening new tabs work just fine.

1/2

@vkc

But I've read some reports of accidental pastes when trying to use some 3d related (web)apps so IMO it makes sense for the browser to do something about it. Personally I agree with firefox's general stance of respecting upstream/distro settings. I'll leave it enabled because it literally halves my clicks when filling forms (yeah I'm lazy to reach for the keyboard), and on some stupid sites that literally block ctrl and right clicking, usually this method still works.

2/2.

@vkc I disagree on the move, though having it opt-in like alt to move windows should be fine. I agree fully with your take on the tone and agressivity there... Smells like pettiness and sheer ingratitude. Let's get nicer and friendly, as well as more considerate..

@vkc best part about linux is that theres options. some people like gnome so they can use it. i like kde or xfce so i use those. why argue?

@tragivictoria That "leg instead of hand" avatar is something 😄

@vkc it's @lproven , a yellow journalist who likes to farm hates posts against GNOME and is known to have grudge against GNOME developers. 0 contributions to FOSS, btw.

@vkc I use it and find it quite helpful.

Bashing changing the default so it's more accessible to new users to the platform, and hyping the rage up for a clickbaity title, and defending that as "more engaging"?

I've unfollowed the author and muted mentions of The Register links.

It's been going bad for a while, but that's not the energy I need in my life in 2026.

They get to pick their audience, but I'm not it.

@vkc while I fully share your sentiment regarding the article, "people can just use something else" is kind of a cheap way out imo. Linux has had a lot of influx lately with MS repeatedly shitting the bed, and I assume by now we have a decent percentage of users for which a desktop switch is beyond their capabilities. I by the way love middle click, and am currently using gnome, and I also would prefer them not moving goalposts without consideration for people who liked it the old way.

@vkc Definitely not the usual tongue-in-cheek Register article, that's quite disappointing actually. GNOME of all communities spends time and focus on good UX. I agree that the Register journalist reported this issue rather poorly. Third wheel functionality never worked for me when they introduced the wheel instead of the middle button.

@vkc I have all desktop environments installed on my pc. I switch whenever I like. We should celebrate all competition as ultimately it leads to more choice for users, that is a core philosophy of linux, choice and complete ownership!

@vkc

I use middle-click-paste all the time, and I would miss it. As you say, this is not a life-or-death thing. We just gotta have our drama.

I use Plasma, so, A) This conversation doesn’t apply to me, B) There certainly would be (or maybe already is) an option to turn it on/off.

As an aside, I flip off my work laptop frequently. It’s Windows 11, and it’s hateful.

@vkc@linuxmom.net Peoole write like this about Gnome because GNOME developers are specifically being really annoyingly smug about it.

They could've made a normal issue where they say "We changed a default here's why".

But no, Gnome developers will intentionally use provoking language like calling it just a weird " X11ism" and implying you're stupid if you actually want this feature.

This attitude from Gnome a lot of people because this attitude causes Gnome to become software that is literally unusable without third party plugins and gnome tweaks.

They are high in their own farts.

@vkc possibly easier to complain well-serviced software into compliance than setting up an unserviced fork - that's definitely more energy-intensive. as we can already see from the browser landscape.

@proficiency @vkc All of this is lies and additionally it is personal attacks and harassment.

1. Criticism is good, right, and necessary.
2. Petridis has personal animus against me because I criticise his baby.
3. I have no grudges against anyone in FOSS.
4. I have an active GitHub account under my own name with 1 project of my own and contributions going back over a decade.

You are attacking me. This is ad hominem and you are telling lies about me.

@vkc I use that all the time, heck I just use in the last 4 minutes. This will really irk me to no end and I will need to undo decades of muscle memory!

@lproven @vkc you being a yellow journalist is not a lie, your rag of an article proves that not only to me but everyone.

That's a criticism, you being a yellow journalist.

Petridis act like a baby? Sure, but so do you when confronted with criticism, the difference is that Petridis contributed more in a month to FOSS than you did in decades.

Criticism: you're a yellow journalist and the only times the register made a headline was when you made a trash article.

Ad hominem: you're balding.

@vkc Opt-In is just what they are proposing https://mastodon.neilzone.co.uk/@neil/115855171822312244 According to this post https://floss.social/@felipeborges/115855208249001716 it’s probably getting a option in the settings as well. So yes, I think that’s exactly the right move for a majority of the users. Even if it’s *not* getting dedicated option, for those who need/want it, there will always be GNOME tweaks or the command line.

@vkc Its weird people getting really angry at random choices. Being frustrated is okay, that's a human emotion people are allowed to feel, but don't take it out on others. GNOME's unwaivering commitment to ensuring a consistent UX vision is what has made it so popular. If somebody doesn't like GNOME, there's tons of other options. That's the beauty of Linux, there's something for everyone :)

@vkc @rappscal There's already an official GUI app for it, alongside other obscure things like "focus follows mouse" for window management etc.: https://mastodon.social/@nekohayo/115871263647122444

@vkc Meanwhile, here in KDE land: *crickets*
Yeah because here middle click is whatever the fuck you want, the correct answer to the question, what should middle click do?

@VampirePenguin my read on the proposal is this would be an option, which defaults to "off" and can be turned on by the user. IMO that's a reasonable proposal.

@vkc

if you don't like it don't use it
You can like something as a whole and dislike aspects of it. And isn't this the case with a lot of things in life? If I stopped using something over disliking just a few parts of it, I wouldn't be able to use anything at all because nothing will ever be a 100% fit.

@volpeon OK so I don't literally mean "quit using GNOME if you dislike one or two things", I mean "rather than bring vitriol into a conversation, consider investing that time and energy in a new tool".

I often say "if you don't like it, don't use it" as a shorthand because we're blessed for choice here in the Linux ecosystem, unlike other desktop computing platforms.

There is a vested interest by numerous groups within the free and open source community to take Linux in a direction that not everyone will agree with. GNOME happens to be one such group and tends to catch a lot of flak due to their unwillingness to compromise on their principles. Something that has at times caused complications in the projects they collaborate on such as Wayland.

Ultimately, we have a difference in opinion when it comes to communities and their responsibility. I believe that a community has a responsibility to tend to the needs and interests of the people from which it consists. As a YouTuber for example, you would be nothing without your audience and as such you may have a vested interest to appease them.

GNOME is held accountable only to the developers and people within their foundation and not the community. This creates a disconnect where people feel they are being ignored. When the users of your software make that discontent known and you continue to ignore it rather than address the issue, it festers resentment. That resentment builds up into the sentiment that some people have towards GNOME today.

Sure, they can always just use COSMIC which has some feature parity to GNOME. But that isn't the point. In order to maintain a healthy community, some concessions are necessary and the cause and effect of GNOME refusing to do so is the sentiment people hold towards them.

@vkc@linuxmom.net

@Saorsa @vkc it's wrong to assume that *everybody* agrees on most things, or even on most things. This was never the case, and it will never be, and it's ok, and the big advantage, is that besides having a lot of optionsm we have mostly Free Software the have the power to fork. Those who don't like this, don't Like Free Software.

It's ok for GNOME to do whatever GNOME wants to do, that's called freedom. I say this and I don't always agree with them, and I use GNOME since I use Linux (decades)

I try not avoid making assumptions that aren't already save or measurable empirically. I was elaborating on the the cause and effect of GNOME, their actions and how they are received by the larger FOSS community.

GNOME are free to act in accordance with how the foundation and the collective from which it is composed wish to manage the development of their software and surrounding community. There are social consequences however, to neglecting the needs and interests of the people using it.

Telling someone to go fork the software or go elsewhere is not a reasonable response nor conductive to keeping a healthy community and userbase. It only communicates that you are not interested in considering external output which will rightfully make the people who use and are invested in GNOME and its ecosystem rightfully frustrated.

That is why my previous post outlines and urges the necessity of listening to your community and move in lock step with them or else you'll end up in the same circumstance that GNOME currently is.

@DiogoConstantino@masto.pt @vkc@linuxmom.net

@Saorsa @vkc I argue that what you call larger FOSS community might not be as supporting of FOSS and freedom as they believe they are.

I'm not saying all that "FOSS community", but many (I can't say most, and I don't think empirical observation is fair for that), only recognize the freedom when it's freedom for others to do what they want, and not what the others want.

@Saorsa @vkc The users who usually have a voice that is recognized by developers and other organization leadership are users which are contributors in other ways other than development and are directly engaged with the development project. This is natural, and others will have a hard time to make their opinion to be recognized.

While I think this is natural, I also believe projects should try to have programs to expand the relation with those other users, and to listen to them as well.

@Saorsa @vkc But I don't hold to the project entirely the responsibility of getting involved in ways that will lead to be heard. Those who want to affect how technology is defined have to be active in contributing, in ways that are recognized.

@Saorsa @vkc I do think your opinion about the fork is a bit exaggerated, making a fork doesn't, doesn't have to be a drama, and doesn't even have to lead to a community break.

Users have different and conflicting opinions. It's simply not possible to make them all happy about everything. It's also not fair that users who don't contribute in any way define technology as much as those who do. So forking is inevitable and should be welcome without drama by Free Sofware lovers.

@Saorsa @vkc Forking doesn't prevent collaboration, and might even lead to understandings that make more people happier with the outcome.

@vkc

The combination of "newlines in pasted text will trigger messages sending in some chat clients" and "the middle mouse button is millimeters away from the spacebar on some laptops" is awful behaviour. I have had mortifying accidents because of it, where multiline text automatically sent to people I was speaking with- because I have human motor skills and hit the middle mouse button by accident.

I admit it *can* be useful, I guess... but it's behaviour I would happily get rid of.

@mouseless @vkc I love the middle click, but I would be happy if people who don't could disable it.

I think mouse buttons being millimetre away from space bar is a bad computer design.

@vkc they are causing deep emotional harm, but we’re not dealing with mature, well-adjusted adults here. We’re dealing with Linux zealots.

I like the highlight and middle-click paste. It gives me a second, and faster, clipboard.

I can see how it would be frustrating for new users and those without a suitably firm actuator on their rodent.

@vkc I’m glad middle click is getting turned off by default too.

My first experience with Linux was installing it on a Mac, connecting my Magic Mouse, then trying to work out why it was randomly pasting my clipboard all over the place instead of clicking normally.

I eventually worked out that Linux thought magic mice should have a third, mystery button in the middle which pastes. Not a good first user experience - wasn’t familiar or comfortable behaviour.

Hopefully this helps new users.

@vkc to turn this comment over, have you ever questioned the mouse design? What is the purpose of the middle button now? It's a waste of a switch ? p.s. I've been using middle paste since I moved to Linux (~1999) it's way faster than alternatives as long as your mouse isn't physical difficult. I chose my mouse carefully for that reason. Now, the feature is not really gone, it's just disabled. There is a thing called gnome tweaks, you could disable it for a while, now you can enable it instead.

@vkc I don't believe anyone is arguing otherwise, especially not the people who disagree with that decision. It's just that the GNOME maintainers have a habit of not implementing features they have decided that users don't need, ranging from little things like this to maximize and minimize buttons, and I believe it's understandable to not like this mindset and think those things should at least be configurable.

"Some people like the GNOME way of doing things and those people are okay" and "One of the main draws of Linux is escaping the one-size-fits-all paradigm that Windows and MacOS are leaning into more and more lately, and the GNOME maintainers' attitude of "if you don't like your desktop how we like ours, don't use GNOME" is disappointing" are not mutually exclusive ideas.