I've been reading all of Williams Gibson's novels back to back and the thing that surprises me the most is that this guy... for all of the moodiness and cyberpunkery loves a happy ending. A happy ending for everyone. In the strict rules of drama this should make the novels comedies. But I don't think that quite fits.
Normally something big and unprocessed happens at the end, but bad guys generally get theirs, and the good guys, and the weird guys are alright, not perfect but OK.
1/
Doing that does make it feel like the story is over. That's important. Can't just... trail off. But endings are hard.
Among the sci-fi and cyber punk... who does endings well do you think?
2/2
@futurebird "The good ended happily, and the bad unhappily. That is what fiction means." --- Ms. Prism, "The Importance of Being Ernest" by Oscar Wilde
@futurebird
The ending of "The Hydrogen Sonata" by Iain M. Banks had me crying. So perfect. What a way to end a career.
@futurebird I tend to see his endings a bit differently. They conclude the story satisfactorily, but it's an "incremental happiness:" the world at large, as it was presented at the beginning of the book, rarely changes for the better. It just changes, like the AIs which become "Loas" in the other Sprawl books, and Case who we learn (in Mona Lisa Overdrive) is now happily married-with-children.
@futurebird The fact that Frank Herbert was able to wrap up all the threads in “Dune” and have a succinct ending was master-class.
@futurebird Arkady Martine. The ending of A Memory Called Empire is perfect.
@futurebird Stan Robinson… particularly the end of the Mars Trilogy, but also Aurora. Oh and Galileo’s Dream. And oh dear, apparently all of them.
@futurebird I tend to think in those terms, once I come up with a story on a conceptual level I almost immediately think about how it should be resolved, my lead characters don't yet exist but I've already decided where they'll be at the end. Mostly it's in an ok place, happy endings are nice, I like a good resolution. It also makes the writing an interesting challenge, I have to line everything up to get my characters there in a way that doesn't feel contrived and deus ex machinist. I'll change things around in a story as I develop it but I always keep in mind that there's a landing I gotta stick.
@futurebird
A darker example: in a subsequent book we learn one of the previous main characters becomes extremely cautious (borderline paranoid) after their experience (Cayce IIRC) and the people they met.
However I think in his first trilogies Gibson had a rather optimistic view of technology but a pessimistic opinion of how society was using it. In his last book series, I'm not so sure for the "technology" part anymore.
@futurebird I know a lot of people dislike Neal Stephenson's endings as they tend to be rather abrupt. He was asked about this a long time ago in a Slashdot interview, and basically said he ended his books exactly as intended and liked it that way. 😬
I always feel like he's trying to get me to join a church or donate to his Kickstarter for some dubious self improvement method about 1/2 through all of his books... which is why I've not finished reading any of them.
He can write a good hook, though. I gets me invested then starts getting on my nerves more and more until I just put the book down.
@futurebird I've mostly read his earlier books (Snow Crash, Diamond Age, etc.). I did not get the feeling you got at all, that's very interesting.
Snow Crash almost feels like a different author I keep forgetting he wrote it because I LIKE that one.
I'm being very fair to the poor guy aren't I?
Yeah I added his name to the post because of that.
@futurebird hehehe. I read SC twice, and did the same for Cryptonomicon. In both cases, the ending left me saying "That's it?!" aloud, even the second time. :)
@futurebird I thought the ending to The Expanse books (which was kind of spread over the last few of the 9 books) was nicely done. Some of it was predictable from early on, but there are some excellent unexpected bits.
John Scalzi's Redshirts ends fine, but the codas made the light story that went before it hit so hard. I can't think of anything else like it.
@jenesuispasgoth @futurebird I remember like Snow Crash … the next time he passed my awareness was … Diamond Age which I disliked intensely and after that I don’t touch his books with a ten foot pole.
@futurebird she mostly did fantasy, by Dianna Wynne Jones did fantastic endings, I always feel like she ties every loose thread up in a nice little bow.
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth I really liked Seveneves, and it even ends kinda nice.
@jenesuispasgoth @futurebird Cryptonomicon read like someone had written a more boring version of The Code Book with a pointless cryptocurrency plot sandwiched in the middle. It put me off any of his later stuff, though I enjoyed Snow Crash and Diamond Age (well, except the ending of Diamond Age).
@GoblinQuester I need to re-read Diamond Age, but I really liked it at the time. I know at the time my grasp of English was not as good as now, so there was definitely some misinterpretations on my part.
I re-read the beginning a few years ago, and still liked it, but got distracted and never finished again.
I understand his books are not for everyone though, but as @futurebird said, the style has changed a lot since, so maybe you'll like his other books better. 😬
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth I remember I found the beginning interesting but the story disjointed and then an completely unnecessary rape scene (that felt tucked on just to be edgy) completely dissociated me from the book.
@GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth
There was a scene in Seveneves where he was describing how this sexy Russian engineer lady was sleeping in a transparent bubble mostly naked, and on the surface it was supposed to be something about "how fragile is humankind in the cold of space?" but it felt more like soft core porn... like leering... but in a way that was trying to excuse itself and pretend not to be... leering.
Like I don't have a problem? just leer and be honest about it. Creeped me out.
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth Anathem is really good, the setting doesn't really allow for that kind of thing and a lot of importance is given to the study of mathematics. I think you may enjoy that one (my favourite)
@jenesuispasgoth @futurebird Yeah, there is so many authors out there that I could throw my money at, instead of another creepy dude. There is a reason my preference these days is for woman authors.
@futurebird
That's spot on!
I never made that connection.
And I think it's fair to say now he was doing that in every book.
Zodiac's an interesting one. It's short so it doesn't have as much room to escalate as some of his other books but still manages to do a lot of that.
The eco terrorism storyline has also often been topical since he wrote it.
This reminds me of @matociquala on "author points". Clearly, Stephenson didn't get that many author points in the beginning 😂
I wonder if all books do that to some degree, but it's just that what Stephenson wants to say is so tiresome it stands out?
hmm
@david_chisnall I never read the Code Book so I cannot comment. However I didn't find Cryptonomicon boring, sooo... :)
I liked the interleaving of past and present Waterhouses in the story.
@futurebird
@GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth
I could have tolerated it from Niven since I don't really expect him to have any self control that way. But also Niven would have never made it so pretentious when it was just ... some guys sexy notion.
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth I only remember reading one book of Niven - Footfall - found it having interesting ideas but not a fantastic execution. But it was translated and that can always be an issue. Anyway, the only sex related thing I recall from that one is when the aliens try to understand a pornography … which back then I thought was funny, but now dismiss as crude and a stupid joke.
@GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth
He could be very crude, but also funny. And now a lot of if it just very dated.
@jenesuispasgoth @futurebird he wasted all his ending skills on his first, pretty terrible, book, and hasn't ever recovered. Good midgame though.
@smellsofbikes @jenesuispasgoth
I am terrified to think that "ending making skill" might be a finite resource... I really hope it won't work that way.
@jenesuispasgoth @futurebird yes, when I go back and read stuff from that millennia 😜 I often have to set my mind to read it in the context of that time. So much has happened since then. I found reading Ursula Le Guins complete Earthsea with her comments very interesting as it spans such a long time frame.
@GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth @futurebird A few years ago I did a (re)read of all the joint Hugo and Nebula novel winners. Some held up well, many _really_ didn't.
@futurebird @GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth The future is not what it used to be.
— Disputed authorship, definitely not mine
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth oh no, now I'm going to dig up the Stephenson Thread from my old account. I hope you're happy
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth FOUND IT
https://tech.lgbt/@xelle/110231067087431367
(TL;DR: go read Akira)
@futurebird
Like the decontamination scenes in (Star Trek) Enterprise. It feels a bit insulting really. We assume you're too shy to watch porn so you will need an excuse to watch something you'll be titillated by.
"It's not sexy, it's just procedure (but it is sexy)" Or what?
It feels a bit like tabloid "isn't it disgusting how sexy this is, here's some pictures so you can see for yourself just how outrageous and disgusting this actresses' bikini shots are"
@futurebird
To be fair, crudity can be very funny. Willy! See?
@futurebird when I was young I really liked CJ Cherryh's endings, because for me, they felt like a nice compromise between resolving enough things to make it feel like a story, but leaving enough things unresolved as to feel realistic; to me, in the real world, hardly anything is ever resolved the way it is in fiction. I felt most other writers resolved so many things so neatly as to seem too unreal. Now I'm not sure.
@futurebird you know I've got to go with Tchaikovsky, but +1 for Iain M. Banks as well, and my new bestie Emma Newman
@futurebird @GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth isn't this the entirety of what Seveneves was? Showcasing fictional technology (a la Jules Verne) with a dash of being a leering creep, and zero humanity / zero actual plot besides what was needed to showcase the technology?
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth you might also have a lot more of it to start with.
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth I wrote the original thread after watching the Folding Ideas doc on Decentraland, which brings up Snow Crash a couple times. And I'd just finished reading Akira.
I'll now add Paprika to the recommendations, because *holy shit* that's a good (& relevant) movie. It doesn't have most of the aesthetic flourishes associated with cyberpunk but... watch it, and I think you'll see.
@GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth
When I reread Ringworld some years ago I realized how much straight guy's fantasy was in there. But yeah little pretense either
Shoutout to Wilhelmina Baird's cyberpunk/space opera series starting with _Crashcourse_; I think the endings in the first three novels are a good balance of personal crises and Big Plot Events. The third one ends with a This Changes Everything.
... And then the *fourth* novel is enough later that _everything has changed_. Personal actions, the concerns of Plot, and even the prose style got wilder with it. Love it! Wish there was an audiobook version.
I think all of Seveneves is an excuse for sexy racism, and an excuse for ignoring (climate) disaster because we might get sexy racism out of it. Really creeps me out one end to the other.
@pandabutter @futurebird @jenesuispasgoth
I just read every word.
You made my day.
I've had this on my mind for a long time.
It took me many years - embarassing to say how long - to get past liking the stories to realizing how awful it is being in Neal Stephenson's head and then the damage he did to GenX.
It says *something* that anybody left of Newt Gingrich - that includes me - embraced him after Diamond Age.
@futurebird
I've always thought his endings are the most punk part of his cyberpunk.
@futurebird It’s OK to stop reading a Stephenson novel before the end. He loses interest before the end, too.
@futurebird @jenesuispasgoth omg I could go on about Stephenson. Your take and beyond
@futurebird
He did run a Kickstarter years ago that ended…less than satisfactory for those that participated.
Not for self improvement methods though.
@futurebird How about Harry Harrison in “At Last, A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah,” or for hard SF Joe Haldeman.
@GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth @futurebird I really need to try some of her other works. I started with The Wizard of Earthsea and the ‘twist’ was so blatantly telegraphed that 100 pages from the end I (aged 12) was screaming ‘it’s true name is [redacted to avoid spoilers]’ and I found it incredibly frustrating that the supposedly intelligent protagonist spent another 80 pages working out the painfully obvious. I’m told the other books didn’t have this problem.
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@futurebird Yeah, I agree. But the way we can conceive of Peter Thiel's sweaty unhealthiness as a product of a malfunction at Chibi City... that's Gibson. Over and over again.
@david_chisnall @GoblinQuester @jenesuispasgoth @futurebird
I have always felt that aspect of the first Earthsea novel was meant to represent a real-world phenomenon: there are many things about life which are seemingly obvious, but despite their obviousness, there are many people who struggle for years to understand, including many people who are quite intelligent. I don't think it was intended to be a "twist". Most LeGuin stories do not contain a twist (there are some notable exceptions).