An Open Source sustainability story in two slides. (for a coming talk of mine)

Slide 1: car brands using #curl
Slide 2: car brands sponsoring or paying for #curl support

@bagder

Rolls Royce should just give you a car as a "Thank you"

@bagder To be honest though, so much of the entire software ecosystem is built on open source software. There is however absolutely no proportionality between the reliance placed upon OSS vs money spent supporting it.

It's really nothing but shameful. As an individual it may seem a hard nut to crack, but I think that supporting one or two things financially is not only quite easy, it should be done because collectively it does make a difference.

Personally, today, I support Mastodon and Gnome Foundation. May soon also extend support to Firefox and Fedora.

If there is a better way to support OSS, let me know!

@bagder I thought the second image didn't load properly.

@bagder how can you tell they're using curl? Is it in their cars or their IT infra?

@vaidas they say so in documentation and/or in screens

@bagder @vaidas

Or ... some of the drivers contacted bagder for support questions. (lol)

@bagder So many companies that earn money on open source but gives nothing back.

I often try in companies I work for to advocate that we should either contribute back to open source or donate some to maintainers. Often I'm on the loosing side of the battle.

@bagder Can I use these two slides to a private audience? where at least 1 of the car company's OSPO will be present.

@kushal absolutely, please go ahead!

@bagder Some of these companies are part of Automotive Grade Linux (top off my head, Toyota). Does the Linux Foundation, as parent foundation of AGL, contribute financially to Curl?

@dpino nope

@bagder Stockholders: “we are so thankful!..” 🥲

@bagder This is the sad reality. But curl could just switch to a non-commercial license. Afaik it uses a MIT alike license model.

@hambier @nopatience they don't use the curl tool, they use libcurl

@bagder Which makes it more of a deliberate, active choice and integration. They are knowingly using it... I'm assuming, yes?

@nopatience as they list and show curl's license on their screens and in their documentation of course they know about it. They use it. They rely on it. It's just that they don't have to pay so they don't.

@bagder pathetic and shameful and sad

@bagder You may consider adding their last year's profits or revenue to each one

@bagder

Let's light the fires.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/troed_how-many-open-source-projects-are-you-currently-activity-7361650475059818497-fhkA

@nopatience

@troed @nopatience excellent!

@bagder https://xkcd.com/2347/

@bagder @1HommeAzerty @cheziceman

@bagder So that's part of the problem IMO. A Linux Foundation platinum membership costs 500K EUR annually. Some of these companies pay a fee to the LF or similar organizations, yet none of that money goes to fund free and open-source projects.

@bagder
Is it true to say there are more curl instances running off planet than there are sponsoring car companies?
@kushal

@bagder Btw having just checked you can add BYD to the list

@ninkosan thanks!

@bagder

I'll be interested to see your view.

(Curl has the benefit that it gets to announce itself in some cases; there are typically hundreds or thousands of other F/OSS components in use that don't. All face sustainability concerns.)

@bagder man this is so unfair

@bagder Looking forward to see you live this Saturday. Safe travels!

@bagder sooo, your product is too good to not need support? 😉

@bagder I suspect this may be similar to slide 2, but do you have a list of car companies who've submitted patches or positive support requests? (not just "make it work plz")

@bagder @nopatience True, but I don't think that changes much when it comes to the perception of libcurl just being taken for granted. (Unfortunately!)

And there is the elephant in the room: the license. Since I'm not a developer (I don't even work in IT) I'm only occasionally contributing a few patches here or there to FOSS projects but I'm always a bit puzzled when I encounter a project under a MIT-type license.

@bagder

@bagder what would you expect licensing it as MIT lul

@9v1rt 1. curl doesn't "announce itself" 2. these companies use libcurl, it's as "hidden" in the mix as anything else. 3. I don't claim that curl is unique, it just happens to be my baby

@hambier @nopatience switching to GPL would just mean that it would not be used in all those places. It would not make anyone pay. That only works with dual-license setups and that's an entirely separate deal and one I'm not a big fan of, even if it makes good business

@bagder Unfortunately this is very common. Software libraries but also things like OpenStreetMap. "Well, it does not cost any money, we'll take this!" Nobody in the companies thinks about the people behind the projects. Literally nobody!

But when there is a critical bug, everybody cries and demands (!) a quick fix from the creators! (log4j anybody?)

@bagder My guess would be 50% of them probably don't even know because they buy a complete HW/SW package at one of the three or four OEMs out there...

@phako absolutely. I say lots of brands, but they buy their stuff from just handful of different suppliers that ship the sw to them

@bagder If you've got Ford on there, you can probably add Lincoln. Also you've got a bunch of Stellantis brands on there - there's a fair chance they might use the same software in their US brands too (Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram).

@bagder I have always been a fan of "limited commercial use" license models. The world is like that.

@bagder time for vendor locking?

@bagder

If everyone contributed back financially or through supporting patches it’s not like they would even have to give that much each year. Every commercial software project that uses curl giving like 10 bucks a year would have to be upwards of 100 thousand dollars. Enough for maybe 2 developers part time or 1 person full time and any build and test infrastructure they would need.

@bagder Auw....

@bagder It's tragicomic that I saw this the moment we were talking about the exact issue on HN.

...and I didn't give curl:// as an example, because I thought it'd be different. It's really sad.

@bagder but if we don't give them infinite amounts of unpaid labor, The Economy(TM) will fail!

@bagder

Folks, this is why the AGPL is needed.

Using a MIT-like license is what has gotten the parasites grabbing everything for profit, consuming, and giving back absolutely nothing.

They need to be forced to provide changes on deployed computers, or contact you for a custom contract for money.

@bagder dumb question: if you want to get paid for major commercial use, why don't you just change the license in the next release? You're making it available for free but you literally don't have to, if you don't want to, right?

@bagder
I think there are not nearly enough patches designed to specifically break big users' workflows, until a serious discussion is had...

@bagder No Ferrari, Koenigsegg, Bugatti or Lexus?

@multi_flexi Lexus is there in the most recent one...

@bagder Socialization of development and support , privatization of profits.

@bagder isn't this the general case independent of exact industry?
Even if excluding "accidental" usage, because someone is using a *nix computer with scripts.

@bagder

What do they use it for, and how do you know that they're using it? I mean, do you track?

Do the companies officially use it, or is it just some guy in IT ?

I worked for a company once where it was hard to get the bosses to license-up for products that were at the core of our development.

@bagder @vaidas

So they're using it to update the in-car software?

@bagder what if - hear me out - hacktivists that do ransomware campaigns only to funnel the cashish to foss developers

@bagder LIB curl? there's your problem

@hambier @nopatience

@bagder

I wish there was an open-source license that had an ‘if you are a company with over $<X> revenue, then you owe <Y>% of it to the project’ type of clause.

Wouldn't that mostly fix the problem? Is there such a license available now? #openSource

@bagder for the fins, make those orange who requested info e.g. for a vulnerability

@golemwire such a license would no longer be considered Open Source though. It doesn't fulfill all the requirements.

@bagder I love open source. I was part of a team that made open source motion control, and many of the 3D printers you can buy today use our ideas (or code, even).

I think one of the hardest parts of open source is how, when you do get sponsored and sell support, the sponsor now essentially gets control over the project, and gets upset if you don’t yield to it. Worse if you have few sponsors.

On a lighter note: thank you for your work and great project!

@bagder I have to be misunderstanding open-source, thought it just meant the source was freely available for use, modification, and redistribution as long as it is licensed the same. Does the problem have to do with modification & redistribution? I need to learn more.

@golemwire https://opensource.org/osd

@bagder Lamborghini could set you up with a car as a thank you.

@bagder
I think this is wonderful, so thanks for shining a light on it.

Assuming good faith: I wouldn't be surprised if some/most/all of these companies don't even know this fact. Making it visible could be very beneficial. Hopefully for you, but possibly also for the wider FLOSS ecosystem.

Bit sad/surprised to see several suggestions to make the software less/non-free instead of 'anger' towards those companies in their failure to make FLOSS (more) sustainable.

@bagder

Without naming names, I had an open source partner tell us that while their stuff is used by some of the biggest corporations on the planet, my 100-person company is the only one who has given anything back.

@bagder the curl website should list companies that don't sponsor curl... kind of like an anti-"our sponsors" page

@bagder
Maybe replace with logos? Should be fair use, right?

@bagder

Funny how car manufacturers never believe in socialism except when they need a bail-out or free software. 🙄 🙄 🙄

Someday I hope we tire of being played for suckers again and again.

@bagder Techno-feudalism couldn't exist without the free software movement, good people letting their work be used without limits put us all in chains

@bagder Might be even more, some german lawyer is currently suing MG because they violate GPL by not properly attributing.

@bagder maybe Mercedes would. They are pretty supportive and according to their statement they facilitate FOSS Partizipation. https://github.com/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-foss-manifesto/blob/main/mercedes-benz-foss-manifesto_de.md

@bagder

The FOSS world needs to invoke a general strike, or strikes, target ones. Not simply to get corporate consumers of your work to pay for it, which would be sufficient; but a general strike truly at the *core* of corporate operations -- especially if tied in with the major US unions negotiated contract expirations set to all expire 1 May 2028, would HALT BUSINESS.

Y'all are practically enslaved to and by GitHub, you got a know the ruinous arrangements y'all work under are by design.

@bagder

They have no or little power over you. There's no law compelling you to work, you're too diffuse to force, you're untouchable. And crucial.

Its a waste of individual and collective power to not use it.

@bagder @number6 @vaidas or as part of the in-car software itself

@bagder bezahlt Microsoft nach dem es jetzt ja mit Windows ausgeliefert wird?

@bagder damn, that's like 4 different car companies right there.

@bagder If it "just works", why pay for support? /s

@bagder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault%E2%80%93Nissan%E2%80%93Mitsubishi_Alliance

@bagder I’m sorry but, as “selfish” and unfair as it may be from these compagnies to benefit from all this free work without ever giving back, isn’t that the whole point of the software license chosen ?

I mean, the Curl website explicitly states that:

Copyright - License

Curl and libcurl are true Open Source/Free Software and meet all definitions as such. It means that you are free to modify and redistribute all contents of the curl distributed archives. You may also freely use curl and libcurl in your commercial projects.

The whole point of those licenses always has been to allow capitalists to profit from the free work of thousands of “free software” enthusiasts, and that’s probably one of the main reasons why so many “big” projects (which are almost all funded by businesses, directly or indirectly) push very permissive licenses as much as they can under the pretext of “freedom”. 😬

While I feel for you and it is clearly unfair that your (excellent) work is used everywhere without much (if any) payment for it, to me it looks like this goes far beyond the “selfishness” of a few big businesses, and is a systemic problem that cannot be solved without questioning capitalism itself, and the fact that the “free software” community accepts and even embraces it so broadly. 😕

@jor I don't think anyone has said they're not entitled to do this

@bagder

Ah, they're setting the agent string to something other than libcurl's default? How are you determining that specific manufacturers are using it?

I'm definitely aware that it's your baby; interested in how you're thinking about it.

@9v1rt libcurl has no default user-agent string, We find they use curl by them saying so. More details here: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2025/08/15/car-brands-running-curl/

@bagder there is curl inside Dacia 😯 ?

@mariuz yes. My updated version has many more brands

@bagder @phako So, does Bosch send money your way, or Continental?

@patrick @phako no

@bagder

Oh! Understood, thanks.