Something I always notice in #Mumbai is that women clearly feel much safer here than, say, in #Delhi. The statistics on crime against women back this up too.
What brings about this difference? Only when we identify the cause can we hope to remedy the problem.
The few women I asked and the few web searches I tried couldn’t give a definitive answer…so now I turn to Fedi. What do y’all think?
@Zzyzx There’s a perception of southern states to be more educated, and therefore more egalitarian…but I’m under the impression that the southern states are more or less just as sexist and patriarchal as the northern ones. So I’m a little skeptical of that reasoning 😅 But it’s possible that my impression is based on very outdated information… 🤔
@contrapunctus Many reasons.
Mumbai is a "city that never sleeps". Round-the-clock activity + higher population density (than other Indian metros) reduces opportunistic crime.
Policing in Mumbai is far better than Delhi, AFAIK, although it's far from adequate/ perfect.
Mumbai has more entrenched organised crime than other metros. There is relatively less 'interest' in opportunistic and/ or non-financial crime.
@contrapunctus Relatively more avenues & opportunities for men & women to socially interact. Less 'deprivation'.
A higher population of employed women. A few decades ago, women worked in cloth mills & other industries. Women work night shifts & take public transport. That is socially acceptable. Higher civic and public participation of women = greater visibility of women = more safety.
The social reform movement for women's education, widow remarriage, etc. started in Maharashtra & Bengal.
@rohini Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! I vaguely had the first one in mind myself.
@rohini What avenues and opportunities do you refer to? 🤔
@contrapunctus in general, intermingling between the sexes is not as frowned upon. Pubs, co-ed schools & colleges, social events, religious festivals, community events, and of course, workplaces. Relatively more women in the workforce. Those wanting paid liaisons also have plenty of avenues & opportunities.
@contrapunctus If women's safety in public places is a topic of interest, do read the book "Why Loiter?" By Shilpa Phadke and others.
@contrapunctus @Zzyzx
You are not entirely wrong. But there are, imo, additional multiple factors. Misogyny and patriarchy is a spectrum. Culturally women in Maharashtra, West Bengal and Kerala (among others) have had a better status and say in the family than in the north. Making the city environment a bit better in that spectrum but doesn’t mean it is absent.
There is also the factor of bad sex ratio in the north because of horrible reasons.
@sandipb @Zzyzx Good points, thanks! Also, after some discussion with some folks in the Indians and Indophiles XMPP channel, I came to something of a realization…there might be a general culture of aggression and violence in Delhi. People seem to be ready to blow their lids and stoop to fisticuffs at the drop of a hat…if true, that might be one of the factors. 🤔
@contrapunctus @Zzyzx as a person whose home city is Delhi :), i will completely agree, from experience. I have lived all around the country, from Punjab, to West Bengal to Karnataka. Even as a male, I have never seen more brushes with violence as in Delhi.
The latest was almost attacked for not giving way to a car at a traffic red light. The other guy didn’t care about the light but I was in the way :-/
gendered and sexual harrassment
@Zzyzx @contrapunctus probably not. From a 2012 report “Are cities in Kerala Safe for Women?”:
How do women take care of themselves from sexual harassments in public spaces? A number of strategies or precautions for personal safety were taken by the respondents, as they expect untoward harassment any time while going out. For instance, keep away from certain public or crowded places, not going out alone especially after darkness, and elude wearing certain clothes etc. Apparently, all the strategies curb women’s mobility, involvement and participation in public life.
A significant lot avoid secluded areas and avoid going out alone after dark. 68% reported that they avoided walking alone after dark and 49% avoided secluded places because they felt unsafe.
[…]
Those who have night shifts face various problems like reluctance by auto-drivers to take them to their destinations, and men in the street very often make obscene comments etc.
[…]
Women complained that in many places foot paths are narrow and always vehicles are parked on the foot path. In almost all places the footpaths are used by shops or vendors. Even the newly built footpaths are not accessible for physically challenged people as they have sudden dips at the ending/beginning.
There are no seating facilities inside bus shelters. Bunches in the newly built shelters at Thrissur city are widely occupied by drunkards to lie down. Therefore the bus shelters are generally inaccessible to aged or pregnant women.
[…]
Number of public toilets in the city area is insufficient. Some of them are kept under lock and key. Also there is scarcity of clean toilets in both the cities. Therefore women are forced to go to expensive hotels and to have coffee even if they do not want.
Source: https://sakhikerala.org and https://sakhi-cdn.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/LjXWCv50v1-safeCity-Combined-final-April-13.pdf
@contrapunctus @rohini @badri@scholar.social @badri@snipetteville.in It's not easy to know the cause of something even with research.
My favorite is the analysis of crime rates dropping in the US during the 1990s from the book Freakonomics. Most explanations were looking for direct causes such as increase in number of police or increased use of capital punishment.
Freakonomics' author claimed that the legalization of abortion 20 years ago led to drop in crime rate during the 90s. A lot of criminals weren't born.
@contrapunctus @rohini @badri@scholar.social @badri@snipetteville.in
In summary, identifying relevant issues could be challenging due to streetlight effect and "causation" is usually hard to prove (as it is not even defined, I think). The best thing stats can do is to get correlation. But correlation doesn't mean causation.
I just find that Freakonomics example interesting, so shared it😃
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@ravi @contrapunctus @rohini @badri@scholar.social @badri@snipetteville.in have you seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11eTG4_iwqw ? It contains a nice criticism of not only the books but even the authors of Freakonomics. Special attention to that abortion paper.
@ravi @contrapunctus @rohini @badri@scholar.social @badri@snipetteville.in one can get a decent causation from stats I think. If two situations are same except for just one variable then one can establish a causal relationship if we haven't missed some important variable.
@badri We owe a lot of our knowledge in the social sciences to these things, so I doubt if this rarity of having similar situations can be that profound. Though, I think I am just biased since the last few articles I read all highlighted problems in their initial interpretation rather than a problem in data :)
@badri@snipetteville.in @khubsuratinsaan @contrapunctus @rohini @badri@scholar.social How do you define causation? At least in physics, I think causality is undefined.
@ravi @badri@snipetteville.in @contrapunctus @rohini @badri@scholar.social well if you have two situations which are basically identical except for one variable initially, then all subsequent differences can be attributed to those variable.