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@brie #xmpp is just a protocol, with what you say you are recommending any proprietary centralized implementation as well, including WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger IIRC? 🤔

people want to use products/tools not a protocol, what runs in background doesn't matter

@murena

@arcanechat @brie XMPP is also the name of a decentralized network (based on the protocol of the same name).

It’s not a single product, so it leaves you with choices. This can be seen as good or bad.

@zeank bad, you need to give something people can type in their app store of choice and get a program installed, if the #xmpp community keeps having that #nerd mindset, xmpp will never get mainstream adoption but be a niche for techies, which is fine, but then I see some people promoting it when we are talking of replacing mainstream messengers

@brie

@murena

Or #Jabber.
#Privacy and #digitalSovereignty since 1999 🙂
Jabber is the #fediverse of chat.

@zeank @arcanechat @brie

More good than bad. If there is only a single product, it will never adapt to different needs and use cases. #DiversityIsStrength.

@menel oh boy... searching for "install" or "download" in that page gives zero results... I am a developer and even I am left like "ok but how I actually use this thing, or is this just an idea that runs in my imagination"

later found some "app" section in the menu, still left puzzled about "install instructions are in your invite link" and later "help! I just want to chat! -> use conversations" haha, I guess this is the most userfriendly xmpp people could come up with

@brie

@debacle if strength means poor usability UI/UX and being incompatible between clients, then yes, you are hulk

@zeank @brie

@arcanechat @zeank @brie

I'm sure, I'm able to write a Delta client, that has both horrible UX, and is incompatible to other clients.

@debacle yes, but still there is a flagship client that works in all platforms that I can point people to and ignore your shitty client, there is no such client in XMPP and this is the problem you guys have to solve, you need a main STABLE client with all features people expect working on all platforms with seamless experience, then go have fun building your XEP-lego client

@zeank @brie

@arcanechat @zeank @brie

All platforms would be good. My platform:

$ apt search deltachat
Sorting...
Full Text Search...
$

But, true, there is no "perfect" #Jabber client. I'm mainly on #Dino by @dino and #Gajim by @gajim. One for the A/V calls, the other for all other features.

@debacle you can install from flatpak or even manual .deb or appimage, that you don't have #Debian pacakge is not a point at all, we are talking about mainstream adoption here

@zeank @brie @dino @gajim

@debacle this is super terrible btw, even in desktop you are using 2 #xmpp clients because both are half-way, this is really depressive

@zeank @brie

@feld he knows he can run in Debian he just want to annoy with the missing package in official Debian repo which is a terrible idea for a security messenger

@debacle @zeank @brie

@feld @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie

Debian is not missing any software, that is relevant to me. At least on my own PC. Before I try Delta, it needs to be in Debian, at least one of its various clients 🤷

@arcanechat @zeank @brie

I didn't check, but I can imagine, that the "halfway" would hold for Delta as well? I.e. does it have all the features, I need? No idea, but as soon as Delta is in Debian, I'll try.

bugs.debian.org/1073037

@debacle it is on debian, you just don't want to install it from other source than a repository holding frozen/old version of software

@feld

@feld @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie

I hope, there are other clients, maybe at least one not written in Rust? Ideally, one that runs in #Emacs. I'm really missing a modern chat client in Emacs, as #jabberEl is too outdated. (Need to try #ementEl, the Matrix client, again.)

@feld @arcanechat @dino @gajim @zeank @brie

I guess, it's all standardized (OpenPGP, autocrypt, SMTP, IMAP...) so it shouldn't be too hard having multiple, independent implementations in whatever programming language?

@feld the #xmpp enthusiast mentality, create another delta chat client from scratch re-implementing everything instead of focusing energy in a shared effort, that is why #DeltaChat, an #email client had proper message replies with jump-to-quote, emoji reactions, stickers support, etc. before 99% the xmpp clients out there

blame google for "embrace and extinguish" but the worse enemy of xmpp is its own community

@debacle @zeank @brie