Planning to have my first work day of my year as a full-time writer this coming Monday.

@amin

WOT tell me about it!!!

@rl_dane

Tell you what? :)

@amin

About your schedule!

@rl_dane

Coming up with one is one of Monday's tasks. ;)

But I'm planning to start a little lighter, with a blog post and some coding for a publishing project I've been planning. The main goal right now is to start getting into the practice of getting up and prepared for focused work.

@amin

I want to try to finally, actually start spending some focused time learning programming.
My problem is that I really struggle to do anything on my own.
I literally go from "I hate the universe" to "I love everything and everyone" after just spending half an hour having tea with someone.
I'm that dependent on social structure. That's why I absolutely loved working on a team back when I had a normal job in I.T. But I'm not sure those really exist anymore. :/

I'm one of the rare people that does not do well working from home, and for someone who is supposedly neurospicy, I don't like working on my own at all.

@rl_dane

Hmmmm. Maybe you could find a small group of people to learn together with?

@amin

No idea how to do that. I even thought about taking out a craigslist ad "come study with me!" but I can forsee that leading to a lot of sundry awkwardness XD

@ivanmarkov

@rl_dane @amin

hi we exist

@ivanmarkov @amin

lol a fact for which I am particularly thankful!

Wanna learn C???? :D

https://gustedt.gitlabpages.inria.fr/modern-c/

P.S. aaaand now [Modern Love] is playing through my head, again. Unironically thank you, David Bowie.

https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=HivQqTtiHVw
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=HivQqTtiHVw
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HivQqTtiHVw

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin that book is also on my TODO to read through and evaluate.

Though I normally write portable C instead.

@mirabilos @ivanmarkov @amin

Is C23 not considered portable? :o

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin nowhere even near it.

A C99 subset is mostly portable, but C89 with long long #ifdef LLONG_MAX is.

@rl_dane @mirabilos @amin

It's not AS portable. ;p

@ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin it’s not portable to anything from before about mid-2025.

@mirabilos @ivanmarkov @amin

Is that because compilers haven't picked up on it yet, or are there some sneaky OS-specific things in the spec?

I'm struggling to picture how a language specification can be made non-portable. 😓

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin yes

@rl_dane @mirabilos @amin

You wouldn't compile C23 code for a Macintosh ;p would you

@ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin I don’t have a Macintosh, but I absolutely would compile for one.

@mirabilos @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin
if by thing you mean compiler, you should be able to compile c23 for anything that has a clang backend

@kabel42 @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin nah, clang won’t even run on many machines because it needs C++ and too much RAM

@mirabilos @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin or GCC if you prefer. GCC can compile C23 for a CH32V003 even if that CPU has no chance* to run GCC.
*technically, with enough external RAM you could run a RISC-V emulator on that that could run Linux very slowly

@kabel42 @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin self-hosting is a want

@rl_dane @amin

I already know C! I'd love to learn more though ;p so sure. Let's make a signal group chat?

@ivanmarkov @amin

What about Matrix? It can be a little more annoying to get working, but the client options are way better than Signal.

@rl_dane @amin

Fine by me! I am `@markov:envs.net` :)

@ivanmarkov @amin

Any other takers?

@kabel42 @pixx @clayton ?

@rl_dane I keep trying to learn programming languages. Never had much success.

@ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 @pixx @clayton

@orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 @pixx @clayton

JOIN US!!!

I promise to move slowly and explain things. XD

@rl_dane That would be great.

I am thinking of getting started learning something in 2026 - new year, new me I guess 😆. Not sure what language I want to learn yet. I've got Python or C/C++ in my head as I've done a bit of work with both.

@ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 @pixx @clayton

@orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @kabel42 @pixx @clayton

I have this weird thing where I want my server and desktop OS to be the same. I've finally realized that means I should run something like Debian on my desktop, not that I should run Fedora Server.

@amin @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton debian stable on a desktop sounds bad

@kabel42 @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton

it's absolutely glorious, I love it. My first install that's lasted me more than a year before it broke or I wanted to move. I'm now at 2 years and 3 months.

@kabel42 @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton

Since I'm not spending my time messing with my OS (because if I get it working on Debian, it just works going forward) I've been able to spend more time scripting and automating my setup, and just using my computer.

@kabel42 @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton

I mean, maybe if you used a DE like GNOME slow updates would give you trouble, I dunno. On a tiling WM I don't have any issues with that.

@amin @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton maybe its been to long since i tried. Last time the "That bug im having has been fixed a year ago, but that version isn't in stable yet" was more of a thing.

@kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton

Ok, that is an understandable concern.

@rl_dane @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton debian release cycles have become a lot shorter since the last time i tried to run stable

@rl_dane @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton no, its still every 2 years 🤷

@kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton

Flatpak makes the semiannual release cycle a lot more bearable.

@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

It definitely did for me back when I was using Debian. :p

It's one of the things you learn to appreciate from flatpak, even if it means you waste some space

@ivanmarkov @kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

It does waste space, but not much more than literally any other third-party package manager.
Whether you're using static binaries, containers, AppImages, or just directories full of its own set of dependencies, third party packages are gonna be a bit bloaty.

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

building from source?

@amin @rl_dane @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

Then it depends on how you build it! Are you linking against your system binaries? Are you linking against something else? Linking statically or dynamically? What's the programming language?

@ivanmarkov @rl_dane @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

./configure
make
doas make install

👀

@amin @rl_dane @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

Aurrrr then it depends on what's in the makefile ;p

@ivanmarkov @rl_dane @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

./configure
make
make install

🥳

@amin @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton at least put that through you package manager

@kabel42 @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @orbitalmartian @pixx @clayton

In all seriousness I do want to figure out building .deb packages

@ivanmarkov @clayton @rl_dane @kabel42 @pixx @amin @orbitalmartian basically, you build .dsc pckages and let an autobuilder (or sbuild or pbuilder/cowbuilder) do the rest

@orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 @pixx

I’m sure I could benefit from the structure of C but would probably benefit more from another programming language.

I do so much in Python and Powershell. Something like Go would probably be better for me.

@clayton @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 @pixx

Hate google, but I gotta respect #Issue9 (golang)'s heritage, with Kernighan and Pike involved.
Hare also looks like an interesting language.
Rust is way too popular. I default to distrust. XD

@rl_dane @clayton @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42

Go is really good IMO. I was more hesitant with it a few years ago, but after using it regularly for years I've come around. There's a _lot_ it gets _very_ right. Moreso than almost any other language I've used.

@rl_dane @clayton @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 00

Rust has a lot of good goals, IMO. I simply don't think it's a very well-designed language. "Designed" is maybe giving them too much credit, frankly.

@pixx @rl_dane @clayton @orbitalmartian @amin @kabel42

What are your issues with the design of rust? :p

@ivanmarkov @pixx @rl_dane @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Rust hurts my brain

@amin @pixx @rl_dane @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

It can be a lot to take in when you aren't used to low level programming languages, or strongly typed languages

@ivanmarkov @amin @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I have a hard time seeing functional languages as "low-level." I think it's a high level language masquerading as a low-level language by brute force, and that force is seen when you try to compile something. XD

@rl_dane @amin @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Rust is not a functional programming language but multi-paradigm. Also, it *is* low level. As a matter of fact, it is a system's programming language. That's right, it stands next to C in that sense. ;p

@ivanmarkov @amin @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

A language can be a systems programming language and also high-level. Heck, C was considered high-level when I was a young-un. XD

Being a low-level language isn't about speed or usability, but the level of abstraction. I don't know much about rust, but it does seem to provide a reasonably high level of abstraction, while still producing quite optimized object code.

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian c is high level in the sense that the same code runs on different architectures

@kabel42 @pixx @clayton @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @rl_dane there’s also HLA, which I personally never got into, feeling the extra overhead compared to normal asm not worth learning.

But, c’mon, C has a few abstraction atop just being portable assembly, and I don’t just mean new stuff like defer but also e.g. that you can do:

void
foo(struct somestruct *arg)
{
        struct somestruct tmp;

        tmp = *a; //<--
        tmp.member = 1;
        otherfunc(&tmp);
        arg->othermember = tmp.otherresult;
}

That is, assign a struct and it’ll shallow-copy the contents instead of just the pointer. (Python3 cannot do this easily!) No manual memcpy needed, and it can skip large holes.

@kabel42 @clayton @rl_dane @pixx @ivanmarkov @orbitalmartian @amin biannual

(semi is greek for half)

Flatpak is a stinking container format with all the downsides. And maybe you don’t need all the shiny things. And can make backports or at least proper Debian packages in one’s own repo for stuff you do.

@rl_dane @pixx @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin shorter than you remember, perhaps. But it’s been a nice cadence, not too short either, for quite a while yet.

The average user is intended to run testing anyway.

@rl_dane @orbitalmartian @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @kabel42 @pixx bugfixes can be made into a stable update (just not version updates). The SRM seem to have been more accepting of such lately, too.

@kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin @pixx @orbitalmartian @rl_dane huh? No. Especially on a desktop, where some user just needs to work on, it can be good.

@orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin @pixx @clayton C23 is interesting so far :)

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @clayton @pixx haha, this will be fun if you end up using C23 before me.

But then, I learnt C before C99 was even a thing, and I regularly deal with environments thereabouts.

@orbitalmartian

DM me, Ivan, or Kabel your matrix ID if you'd like to join the chat.

We will move slowly and fix society. 😁

@ivanmarkov @amin @kabel42 @pixx @clayton

@amin @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @pixx @rl_dane @clayton feel free to throw things at me if you need another explainer. Will have to be IRC (OFTC, currently), eMail or Fedi though. (I could do XMPP, but the lack of long posts in meaningful ways there is prohibitive. For IRC, use termbin.)

@mirabilos @pixx @clayton @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @rl_dane
what does shallow mean in that context?
python has shallow/deep copy in the standard library

@ivanmarkov @pixx @rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @clayton @orbitalmartian shallow means it’ll copy all members of the struct by value, even if they are pointers. Deep copy is when it clones objects behind pointers with a deep copy as well.

@mirabilos @clayton @rl_dane @pixx @ivanmarkov @orbitalmartian @amin
biannual

1. occurring twice a year
2. occurring every other year

@kabel42 @clayton @pixx @ivanmarkov @amin @rl_dane @orbitalmartian yeah but semiannual is half-yearly

@kabel42 @clayton @rl_dane @amin @orbitalmartian @pixx @ivanmarkov gotta love English like only a mother can

@mirabilos @rl_dane @orbitalmartian @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @pixx
i think the last time i tried something other than arch was in the KDE 4.0 days, where KDE was getting a lot better every week and you just wanted the newest upstream

@ivanmarkov @pixx @amin @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @rl_dane @clayton in the KDE 4.0 days I absolutely wanted KDE 3 and for Trinity/TDE to take off.

For KMail/Kontact/KDEPIM this even held for many more years. Thankfully, I got the special BSI build of KDE 3’s with Kolab extensions that worked well ubder KDE 4 as well.

@mirabilos @ivanmarkov @pixx @rl_dane @amin @clayton @orbitalmartian ok, that sounds like its the same as in python

@pixx @rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @clayton @ivanmarkov that’s basically a CS definition, also good to explain mutability

@mirabilos @pixx @rl_dane @amin @orbitalmartian @clayton @ivanmarkov i feel like there is room fur subtle differences between languages that make for good foot shooting :)

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @pixx @kabel42 @orbitalmartian die Implementation in die einzelnen Programmiersprachen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

(sry, untranslatable joke, need to know german constitution)

@mirabilos @kabel42 @pixx @clayton @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov

[HLA] looks neat, I could see it being valuable on very limited platforms/architectures like the 6502, where you might want more control than even a C compiler could give.

@rl_dane @mirabilos @pixx @clayton @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov "It supports advanced data types and object-oriented programming."

@kabel42 @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @amin @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov yes, that’s precisely where my interest dropped…

@mirabilos @pixx @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin

> The average user is intended to run testing anyway.

Noooo, Trixie testing burned my butt. I'll never run testing on any system that's important to my work* again.
I don't recall exactly what happened, and it wasn't cataclysmic, but there were some headaches. This was during the freeze period, of course.

* i.e., systems I can't afford to spend time troubleshooting

@rl_dane @pixx @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin that’s why you have a separate test system (:

(and a friendly DD at hand)

@rl_dane @mirabilos @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin

I ran debian unstable/stable mixed for years without issues. It's not usually too crazy.

@pixx @rl_dane @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin now that is supposed to not be done

@pixx @mirabilos @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin

I've done it as well in year past. Not sure why Trixie was more troublesome. Maybe because I converted it to testing during the freeze.

@rl_dane @pixx @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin perhaps. During the freeze, you’d have few surprises if you were already on testing, but if you were on stable, it’s basically the same as an upgrade to the next stable but with more bugs, which the freeze is for to shake out. If you’re already on testing, you’re less likely to hit them, and if so, then gradually.

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

It's a high-level language when boomers look at it and a low-level one when zoomers look at it. Like quantum particles, it depends on the observer.

@amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Ah yes, the Bohr school of mystical wave functions.

The circle of hype is complete. XD

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Hot take, "Rewrite in Rust" bros are to FOSS what a well-thrown bowling ball is to a game of Jenga.

@amin
Hotter take, FOSS is way overhyped and jenga is better.

"Information should always be free" is a horrible, antisocial concept.

@rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

@pixx @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Hotter take, FOSS is way overhyped...

🤨

"Information should always be free" is a horrible, antisocial concept.

Break that one down, for me.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

> 🤨

The open source movement seeks to divorce programmers from ownership of their craft in a way that would never be tolerated in other fields.

> Break that one down, for me.

Information, and technology, are not inherently positives. the idea that free access to information is a positive is only correct when the people accessing the information are good people.

IMO, a culture of free information must have a culture of gatekeeping, too, by necessity. There _are_ bad people in the world, helping them is an evil act.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Note: I'd break down open-source into a few general camps.

1. Community projects, e.g. 9front. These are projects that are worked on by a central community with strong collaboration.

2. Alternatives to proprietary software. This was the initial impetus for the movement; replacing shitty, abusive, user-hostile programs.

3. Personal projects; i.e. most of what's on Github. Many of them are intended only for personal use, even if they end up used more widely.

There's a lot of overlap - e.g. sqlite AFAIK has a strong community that basically owns it, and they don't even accept patches from outsiders.

I think there's willful conflation of these categories, though.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I think that people in FOSS often, strategically, decry other models.

I also think that software freedom is, to me, a non-goal. I'd rather buy good software I can't modify than deal with open-source software where I'm expected to work for free to fix it.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Which is to say: It's less that I'm pro-FOSS, and more that I'm anti-proprietary?

The problem isn't that I can't modify the software, it's that the software is abusive and doesn't work _and_ I cannot change that.

It's lack of agency, not lack of _software_ control.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Oh, perfect example.

> I'd rather buy good software I can't modify than deal with open-source software where I'm expected to work for free to fix it.

> It's lack of agency, not lack of _software_ control.

I like hacking on 9front. i do that for free. The difference is, I do that _for fun_. That is a _choice_.

If I have to use an image editor for my job, and I decide GIMP sucks, I'm not going to be pleased when someone says "just send patches!" if paint.NET does what I want already.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

"Just send patches" is, to me, just as abusive - in a different way - to many corporate practices.

It puts the burden for bad software onto users, instead of the creators.

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

This is something I'm increasingly actually in agreement with. I think FOSS has been a massive success by its stated intentions and a massive failure by more meaningful benchmarks, and the growing prevalence of bullshit "hey military, you're not allowed to use my code!!!" licenses is irrefutable proof that, in fact, people who are releasing free software are increasingly aware that, well

Software freedom was never really the goal.

Most people don't, actually, want people to be free to use their software to kill people.

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

> Information, and technology, are not inherently positives. the idea that free access to information is a positive is only correct when the people accessing the information are good people.

Elaboration: some information _is_ technology.

"Hey google, how do I build a bomb?"

% 3dprint /media/gun.gcode

"What's the best hash map to use if memory leaks don't matter because this code will run on a nuclear warhead?"

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Rewrite it in rust is the same thing as "Metal" fans who listens to only metallica..

@sotolf @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

"Rewrite it in Rust" is the programming language equivalent of btw bros. ;)

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42 Well, I mean the btw bro's were actually using arch though, which makes it different. :p

@sotolf @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

You mean the "Rewrite it in Rust" bros are rust posers?

BTW, some of the btw bros were running Manjaro. 🤣

@rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42 90 % of the RiiR dudes (yeah, I bet they are all guys) have never used rust, they just jumped onto the SAFETY Bandwagon.

@sotolf @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

At least the bandwagon is memory safe, who cares how many pedestrians it runs over /j

(I have no clue where I'm going with that metaphor)

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42 Haha, no it's not memory safe they think, from what I have understood from having tried discussing with them is that rust is safe, you can't do wrong things in it because it's rust, and blazingly fast [insert sparkle and rocket emoji here]

@sotolf @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

the web framework I used was literally named "rocket" and spat out sparkle and rocket emojis every time it ran into the logs

@amin @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

AUGHH I HATE ROCKET. I'm sorry I admire the work put behind it but it is SO extremely and utterly convoluted and AUGHH

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I think I mostly used it because it was vaguely similar to ExpressJS.

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I once coded my own zero-dependency drop-in replacement for ExpressJS named VocadoJS. Used it in prod for 6mo or so.

@amin @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

That's so awesome! Why?

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

ehhhhhhhhhhh the same answer as always for me: "to see if I could"

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Do not look at the code for my self-coded reverse proxy though

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

https://github.com/benjaminbhollon/node-vps-directory

@amin @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

It's certainly not worse than my horrible implementation for this feature I'm working for my website!!! You can press a button to flip it and see some data on the back. ;p (don't worry there's a fallback for when JS isn't available)

I'm just proud of how the animation turned out let me flex please? XD

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Awesome!!

I meant more from a security standpoint… a self-coded reverse proxy in NodeJS is probably not the way to go

@ivanmarkov @sotolf @rl_dane @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

the thing is at that point I did not even know the term "reverse proxy"

I just knew that I wanted to point multiple domains at one server and threw something together to let me

@orbitalmartian @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @amin @sotolf @pixx @clayton that’s called vhosts

@mirabilos @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @sotolf @pixx @clayton

well I know that now

@amin @orbitalmartian @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @sotolf @pixx @clayton doesn’t even need a reverse proxy if you just run all the sites from within httpd (or whatever new-fangled thing I cannot pronounce people use these days)

@pixx @rl_dane @mirabilos @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin on one system?

@kabel42 @rl_dane @mirabilos @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin

yes?

@pixx @rl_dane @mirabilos @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian#Don.27t_make_a_FrankenDebian

@kabel42 @rl_dane @mirabilos @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @clayton @amin

I know, I found that page afterwards and grinned

@kabel42 @rl_dane @clayton @pixx @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @amin if it helps you, I’ve started Debian with slink (2.1, ‘there’s this new thing called "apt" which is highly experimental, don’t use it yet’) and saw it yesterday for the first time.

@pixx @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Fun fact, the Literature and Latte forums (known for the famed Scrivener novel editing software) do not like me. Direct quote:

• I hope he also only gives his writing away for free if he's so insistent on people who write code doing so.
• [a reply] An absolutely fantastic point.

As far as I can tell they were misinterpreting the landing page for https://freedomtowrite.org/

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

TBH I kinda agree with their interpretation. No offense.

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

> without having to rely on proprietary software.

That can, _rightfully_, be equated to "while having access to software that people currently consider worth paying for, but without having to pay for it," no?

@pixx @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I disagree with the "rightfully" part of that, but I do understand your perspective. It's not one I share. :)

I hold a high value for the recognition and financial support of authors, including authors of code, and I think that's a perspective widely held in the writing industry. The problem is that many beginning authors or people who want to get into editing/publishing simply don't have the money that it takes for proprietary solutions. FOSS allows a gentler introduction into a market that's extremely difficult to break into without paying that financial support up front. Instead, authors and publishers can give back in both time and money later in their careers.

Sure, some won't do that. But a more open ecosystem results in more authors/editors/publishers, which is a net benefit for everyone, and I do believe the end result is that the amount of support for code creators will be increased in such an ecosystem due to the increased total number of authors using the software.

As a different example, Clarkesworld Magazine, which I subscribe to, makes all of its stories available online for free, including ad-free audio editions as a podcast. They also pay their authors rates well above professional minimums, at 14¢ per word. Enough people value the payment of those authors in the space that they subscribe or otherwise financially support the magazine.

Even more interestingly, Beneath Ceaseless Skies, which publishes an issue every two weeks and also pays professional rates, is run as a 501(c)3 non-profit organization and makes all of its stories/issues available completely for free, making the money to pay the authors via donations (I am also a paying supporter of this magazine).

The free publication of stories by each of these magazines increases exposure and brings more readers, many of those readers being ones who, like me and most others invested in the space, value the financial support of authors.

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I mostly agree with you on this. I'm just increasingly convinced that what's phrased as a universal benefit really is coming at some people's expense and that we write this off too easily.

@pixx @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I would agree, but I think FOSS comes at fewer peoples' expenses, particularly at the expenses of fewer people who aren't already well-off.

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Hypothetical scenario:

- I start writing software, and selling it.

- Someone decides that they don't like that I'm selling it and they reverse-engineer it and make something similar as FOSS _for the sole purpose of it not being proprietary_ / to save people money from buying what I produce.

How is that not anticompetitive? They're not trying to compete, they're trying to _destroy a market_.

@pixx @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I consider that more of a flaw inherent in proprietary software than a flaw of FOSS.

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

If I start manufacturing paper, and give it away for free to artists "to free them from dependency on proprietary suppliers," I'm helping the artists and hurting the suppliers. Is that _necessarily_ a good thing?

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Okay, but then why can't I make the same argument about genAI making art free?

Sure, sucks for the artists, but - certainly nice for me, I just needed something to hang and didn't want to have to pay so much...

@cgnarne @amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I'd largely agree with you, but most of the anti-AI sentiment I've heard does not.

The arguments I've heard specifically and explicitly state that _even without_ the environmental and theft problems it would still be wrong.

@pixx @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian
but "bad peolpe" have in the past been better at monopolizing information, so giving information to all is a net positive and much easier than gatekeeping

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Depends on the information.

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Example: are open-source 3d gun models a good thing?

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

(It's too late to undo this one. But this also means gun control is a dead dream.)

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Or: uranium enrichment / bomb production. Should the knowledge on how to build hydrogen bombs be out there? IMO, absolutely not.

@pixx @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian
still hard to pull off even with the knoledge, and you might do more harm if you try to do that with incomplete knowledge

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

_glances at all the countries that have figured it out_.

I don't fully buy that argument. The core concepts are pretty simple when you know them. Not saying it's _easy_, but I think there's probably tens of thousands of people in America alone who could, with sufficient motivation and material resources, figure it out in under twenty years without any accidents.

@pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

I'm curious though how big the overlap is between "people who know how to 3D-print a gun" and "people who want to kill a bunch of people with a 3D-printed gun"

@amin @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Probably not huge, but when you factor in "people who are willing to sell 3d-printed guns" and "people who want to kill a bunch of people with a 3d printed gun and are willing to buy one" it's a lot bigger imo.

@pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

That removes the factor of being able to get them to places that ordinary guns can't be taken, no?

@amin @kabel42 @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

No; if they don't set off metal detectors, whether you printed it or paid someone to is irrelevant

@pixx @amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian why wouldn't they? do you have plastic barrels and bullets?

@kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

...yes? Fairly sure?

@pixx @amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian i wanna see you firing a gun with a barrel that melts at 100°

@kabel42 @clayton @pixx @orbitalmartian @ivanmarkov @rl_dane @amin probably works once, though unclear in which direction it’ll go

(please drop me from Cc on replies)

@kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

> since 1988, the Undetectable Firearms Act has prohibited guns that don't set off metal detectors or x-ray scanners, including those printed by a 3-D printer, by mandating that every gun include approximately 4 ounces of metal

yes.

@amin @rl_dane @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

"Rewrite in Rust" people are exactly as problematic as the "Rewrite in Go" people...

@agowa338 @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Not seriously a programmer (yet), but I find Go a lot less annoying than rust, except for the fact that it's owned by Google and they unapologetically stole the name from another project.

@rl_dane @agowa338 @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42 Go (the original)? Or Issue 9?

@rl_dane @agowa338 @amin @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42 ah, you mentioned in the second half of the sentence.

@wouter @amin @clayton @kabel42 @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @ivanmarkov

Who said 100s? I don't disagree with you on this.

If I make something small and charge $5 - like lots of indie games for instance - that's not even comparable.

Hell, even scaling your argument to AAA games it doesn't work! Yes, they charge an insane amount of money - $80, now? - but their development costs are so massive that _even charging that much_ many of them still lose money!

(That said, I think they deserve it and their costs are bloated because of incompetence, but.)

"Each additional copy is free!" is neither relevant nor true; every copy sold means another user who may need support, fixes that need to be written, a potentially new platform that needs supported (Oh, I tested on Ubuntu and Gentoo, but Fedora? Dammit...)

One of the biggest problems I see with FOSS users, as a developer, is that there's a common expectation of receiving support similar to that which people _pay for_, for free, just because the software is.

@pixx @kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter the interest of people writing FOSS is not normally either "so people can use it gratis" or "so the commercial one goes bankrupt", though.

Also consider it’ll cost them more to do this than it cost you to do yours.

@mirabilos @pixx @amin @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter
there might be a few people who would like M$ to go bankrupt :)

@kabel42 @pixx @amin @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter oh c’mon, it’s not the 1990s any more.

@mirabilos @kabel42 @pixx @amin @orbitalmartian @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter

It's not, but honestly, they're way more evil now than then.

But to your point, I don't see as much "let's dismantle the evil empire" rhetoric as I saw in the early 2000s, and honestly, I wish I did.

If anything, it's more like, "Ugh they're so forking evil. I guess I have to learn Linux now. AAAAH!" 😂

@mirabilos @kabel42 @pixx @amin @orbitalmartian @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter

Some of the fun 90s rhetoric:

https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=QG2MnhrrY7s
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=QG2MnhrrY7s
https://youtube.com/watch?v=QG2MnhrrY7s

@wouter I agree - I don't have an issue with the idea of a commons, of course! It's more that I think that there's willful conflation between "open source" (the commons, worked on as such by many people) and "open source" (a pet project that someone puts into the public) and "open source" (owned by a company but they'll let you give them free labor) and "open source" (I think you get the point :)

@mirabilos @kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @rl_dane @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter

Sure but a lot of FOSS projects really are still just "man FUCK those guys", and that's not a bad thing.

Often it's "their programs suck and their support SUCKS and they won't even LET ME BUY A COPY anymore!"

@pixx @mirabilos @kabel42 @amin @orbitalmartian @clayton @ivanmarkov @wouter

Sure but a lot of FOSS projects really are still just "man FUCK those guys", and that's not a bad thing.

I'd love some examples, because I'm mostly seeing, "I was bored and made this. Don't bug me about it." XD

@pixx @wouter to me open source is, i made this because i want to use it, you might too with some modifications

@amin @sotolf @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

At least the bandwagon is memory safe, who cares how many pedestrians it runs over /j

You really need to watch #TheGoodPlace, it has the very best (and most gruesome) visualization of #TheTrolleyProblem XD

@rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @pixx @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

You're a surgeon. Five people have just been brought in, maimed in a trolley cart accident. Each needs a different organ transplant.

Next door at the dentist, someone has come in to have his teeth cleaned. You could knock him out with a sedative, take his organs, and save five lives.

What do you do?

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Depends on the people.

If i know the person at the dentist's is an awful person, and the five people who need organ transplants are good people, kill the guy for his organs, no hesitation.

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

You're a surgeon, why would you know anything about their moral character?

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

The guy's my neighbour, he ran over three children but got off on lack of evidence. He admitted it was intentional while drunk last week.

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

You've got a major conflict of interest in operating on someone you've got an emotional attachment to, so I'd say this is still an ethically gray scenario.

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

And many people will act horrified by this until you substitute specific people that _they_ think are awful and good into the equation.

Kill hitler to save five Mr Rogers?

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I kinda disagree.

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Hippocrates save me.

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Oh yeah, have I mentioned that I think the hippocratic oath is a bad thing? :D

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

oy, we ain't leaving anything unquestioned tonight, friends

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Can I just say how glad I am that you're not my doctor? Or dentist, I suppose. ;)

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Oh? someone may not know the text of the Oath, then ;)

> ...to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the Healer's oath, but to nobody else.

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I don't know the full text, no. But I don't particularly have a problem with that section if the wording is updated to match the spirit of it in the context of contemporary times. (ie, "indetured pupils" is not the way medical instruction happens now, but I don't have a huge issue with requiring anyone who wants to learn medicines to promise not to do harm with that knowledge.)

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Oh, so you're pro-life then? ;)

> I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion.

That's part of the Hippocratic Oath, too ;)

@pixx @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Gonna just skip this one because, as established, I do not actually know the full text of said oath. Your challenge was bait.

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

...only somewhat.

More seriously / on-point: I don't think "do no harm", the part most people generally think of, is even a coherent idea.

@pixx
Ok I'll take the bait. Why do you think that?
@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

@light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

So, I'm going to preface with a link to https://merveilles.town/@pixx/115804130738168935 , which is important context. It's the modern formulation I disagree with.

"I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm" <- I agree with that, especially with thhe added context in the original.

But helping one person - even the mere act of providing medical care - is not, necessarily, a neutral act.

Let's say tomorrow, Putin has a stroke, and a doctor who swore to "do no harm" gives him medical care.

Is that not, itself, an act of harm towards the Ukrainian populace, by prolonging the war?

I wouldn't even necessarily agree that it _is_, to be clear. I think there's a good argument to be made that it _is_ a moral act to provide the care anyways, and that complies with the "I will abstain from _intentional wrong-doing_" formulation.

I think "no harm" is just too general, too broad a stroke to drwa.

@pixx @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian
on the other hand you can argue that cutting someone open for an operation is doing harm.

If you only help people when you feel like it, you are not useful as a doctor. I wouldn't go to a hospital that does background checks before they help you, even if i haven't done anything wrong.

@kabel42 @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

I would, _if_ people had been breaking in and threatening the staff, for instance.

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

And, apologies for playing the bait first :P

@pixx
Is the punishment proportionate, do you think?
Anti-social behaviour -> death
@kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

@light @kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Depends.

If someone makes a doctor fear for their life, and the doctor then refuses to give that person care - maybe it _is_ disproportionate, but even if it is, so what?

It's a consequence of _their behavior_. If you harm someone and then expect them to help you, that's on _you_, even if the scale _is_ disproportionate.

@light @kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

To me, proportionality isn't necessarily important.

I see it a little differently: if someone chooses to be hostile, to be apart from society, society does not own them anything.

Healthcare is a _service_. It's something that doctors _actively do_ and _provide_.

Why should they not be permitted to refuse to help someone who has sought to do them harm?

@pixx
What if they are hostile for the same reason that the hypothetical doctor doesn't cure them? Because they want to punish someone for their misdeeds.
@kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

@light @kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

There's still a massive distinction to me between "assaulted someone" and "didn't provide aid."

@amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

I'll also admit that I largely agree with the original formulation.

> I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.

It's the modern "First, do no harm" (which... that's like the ninth or tenth thing in the original oath lol) that bothers me

@pixx @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian but both are illegal here :)
though the second one with some *

@light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

Lemme put it this way: I don't think I'd necessarily agree with labelling combat medics as pacifists, or even as noncombatants.

If I pick a side in a war, and I only provide medical care to them, with the knowledge _and intention_ that this will assist the war effort _and kill more enemy combatants_, calling me an innocent or a noncombatant is a stretch IMO.

@kabel42 @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

then the law is wrong.

@pixx @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian
i think its fine, you should try to help other in need (if possible and safe for you)

@kabel42 @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

"You should XYZ" - great, shouldn't be illegal not to.

@kabel42 @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Legislated morality is inherently wrong.

"You should eat a healthy diet" <- sure, agreed.

"We're going to arrest you if you don't" <- what the actual fuck

@pixx
Different kind of morality though.
How you treat others vs the choices you make for yourself
@kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

@light @kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Sure, but that's my point - "it's illegal to not help someone in need" is IMO wrong.

(I'm guessing the law isn't literally that broad, because that would be insane.)

As a general rule, I'm not a fan of fixing things by adding laws.

@light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian @kabel42

an extreme, opposite, example:

Franz Haber invented artificial fertilizer; every human being alive today contains nitrogen produced through the method he came up with.

Then WW1 happened and he, as a loyal German, believed that Germany was going to win. Therefore, logically, the best thing he could do to help the people of the world was _end the war as quickly as possible_ to minimize the death toll.

And, to that end, he invented chemical weapons.

@pixx @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian help -> apply first aid and call an ambulance -> make person not die

@kabel42 @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Is it reasonable to arrest someone for not calling an ambulance if they see someone who needs one?

@kabel42 @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian

Adding a law isn't a statement that "doing this is good," it's a statement that "we will punish you if you don't."

@pixx @light @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian it's a way to make sure you don't anly call an ambulance for white people or don't because that would cost you 30 minutes of your time and that is more important than a life
It shouldn't be necessary, but it wouldn't exist if it wasn't

@light @kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @sotolf @ivanmarkov @clayton @orbitalmartian