I don’t know if this is a sick burn (by a FOSDEM organiser spilling the truth about FOSDEM) or an own goal.
🤷♂️ https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/f49df30a-d65e-4195-833d-29b7481b3aba
@aral It baffles me that people think there's any point to FOSS besides improving freedom/privacy/human rights/democracy.
They should fire that guy.
@aral "Oh, my political project isn't political at all"
-white dudes everywhere
@aral there's a reason I ran like the wind from open source communities.
There's dudes like this everywhere in them. As far as I'm concerned, if you're not developing for human rights, you're developing for fascism
Because “Free and Open Source Software isn’t about freedom/privacy/human rights/democracy” is one helluva take.
(And yes, you’re right, “open source” isn’t about any of those things. It’s just about the source being openly available. Not about protecting its openness or anything. It’s open as in “open for business.” But free (as in freedom) software/technology…? Well, I guess some of us would beg to differ.)
Oh, and if you want a philosophy/movement that isn’t shy or apologetic about being about freedom/privacy/human rights/democracy, see Small Tech:
https://small-tech.org/about/#small-technology
#FOSDEM #openSource #freeSoftware #SmallTech #freedom #privacy #humanRights #democracy
@aral It must be the "other Free" like it was the "other private" in Mastodon confidentiality levels
(remember ? the public one)
@aral Why do so many supposedly smart people think tech is not inherently political?
A fair bit of your declaration seems like a straw man to me.
I've always interpreted free to mean free of payment cost. Free of cost has never meant freedom in the free from tyranny sense.
Open source? Well, open to acquire and scrutinize, etc. Also, are you saying there are no protections available for open source, that something like one of the GPLs doesn't protect the open source itself?
Aral, I'm with you on nearly everything you post. But afaik FOSS has long been about access to code, and no more. "Free and open" parallels human freedom and openness but in the longstanding software "movement", no. But! it is absolutely taken as such by many people, and I'm one of them.
But FOSS doesn't not automatically mean freedom as in human, very many tech folk are tech-first, and that's that. I intensely dislike those people.
This dissonance, this dilemma is deep if not wide. It makes conversations about the use of FOSS to oppress us very messy.
We absolutely need a way to distinguish and state freedom as in human in software.
Yes, Free Software is about politics. Which politics? Depends on who you ask. Some will say that freedom/privacy/human rights/democracy are part of that, but not everyone will, and that doesn't mean they're not part of the community.
This is an important debate but I don't think one in which FOSDEM as an organization has an opinion, even though some of its members might.
@aral My absolutely personal opinion in this debate: Open Source is about methodology, Free Software is about principles.
The principles in question are that everyone should have the freedom to modify software so it does what they need it to do, rather than what the author of the software wanted it to do. This does often include freedom of expression, privacy, human rights and democracy as a side benefit, but they're not why I care about free software.
@aral It also means that if you want to modify some free software so it can, say, control your military equipment, then that does not put you outside of the free software community, even though the free software community might have a larger percentage of people of people who are also pacifists than the general population.
But that's not an absolute, and to claim that free software is about human rights, privacy, or democracy is inaccurate, at best.
@aral Finally, on the specific subject of having Google as a sponsor, I have a personal opinion on that, but I'm not going to comment on that in public.
FOSDEM is not my employer, so they can't fire me.
FOSDEM is a non-profit, all its organizers are volunteers who do this (largely thankless) work because they care about free software and/or open source.
I've also been active in the free software community as a Debian Developer and elsewhere for almost 25 years now, so trust me when I say I know what 'free software' is about.
@aral
@freakazoid Why should they fire him? They agree with him.
(The whole volunteer thing aside.)
@wouter Darling, three whole posts when you could’ve just written “I’m privileged and thus apolitical.”
*plonk*
@freakazoid You have an opinion, and that's valid. My opinion is different.
Free software is not about the open internet. Free software is not about general purpose computing. Free software is not about democracy. Free software is not about privacy.
Those are all important things, and I support many of them! And free software will help you in those endeavours in a very big way.
But they're not free software, by themself. Free software is, well, free software. Nothing more.
@wouter You don't even understand what the word "free" means in "free software".
@wouter If you knew what you were talking about you'd respond to what I said instead of assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Free software isn't just about freedom to use the software you happen to make. It's about the freedom to use *my* computer. *My* printer. *My* phone. Not to have these devices be controlled by their manufacturer to the point that we're really just paying rent up front.
But because ESR came along and convinced so many of you that it's really just about the development process and access to the source code, and businesses were our friends, we now live in a world where Google takes that "free" kernel and used it to built a portable telescreen we all have to carry around.
But if your point is really that free software is about nothing at all that anyone who's not a techbro would care about, as Aral said that's quite the self-own.
@wouter But, honestly, if the "free software" movement weren't full of people such as yourself, we never would have reached this point. And yeah, I guess kinda by definition the movement is about what the mass of its members think it's about, so: nothing that actually matters.
Free software isn't just about freedom to use the software you happen to make. It's about the freedom to use my computer. My printer. My phone. Not to have these devices be controlled by their manufacturer to the point that we're really just paying rent up front.
There's not a hair on my head that does not agree with this, and you thinking otherwise only shows that you completely missed my point.
@freakazoid Free Software is about the 4 freedoms, and the benefits that flow from that into use of that software, which includes things like allowing you make your computer (or printer) do what you want.
There are tangentially related causes, such as privacy, democracy, and freedom of expression, that are relevant and valid, and that I think are very important, but that, while free software can enormously help you achieving, are not directly part of the goals of Free Software.
@wouter The very idea that you should be able to use your computer the way you want is political. And it's also meaningless in a world without human rights, privacy, democracy. So if free software is not about these things, how can it be about freedom to use your computer either?
@freakazoid And I have this (annoying, I know) habit of not conflating everything I care about into everything I do. I care about privacy, but I understand that not everyone in the Free Software community does, and honestly, I think that's fine. To me, it's not required that everything is perfect in every possible way.
When I think about free software, the base of everything is the four freedoms, nothing more.
When I think about privacy, the context is very different.
@wouter What does it mean to say they're not "directly" part of the movement's goals if the movement's goals are meaningless without them? And what is even the point of the movement's goals if it's not to help achieve the others? What are you saying, that you'd like to be able to use your computer the way you want, but if the fascists take over, oh well?
@freakazoid I'm saying that for an organization, it's not possible or desirable to form an opinion about everything. I don't think FOSDEM has an opinion on privacy, human rights, or democracy, even though most of its members do (some quite vocally so).
I'm saying it's OK for FOSDEM to be like that, as long as the opinion on free software is there and is clear.
I'm personally worried by the current backslide to facism, but it's not something I deal with in the context of FOSDEM.
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@wouter Now I feel like we're getting somewhere. In particular we've found the root cause of the free software movement's irrelevance: y'all are fine rubbing shoulders with Nazis. In fact, your "zeroth freedom" is about the freedom to use free software to run death camps. Y'all are fine being IBM to the Nazis as long as you get to use your printer.
@wouter Nobody's asking FOSDEM to have an opinion about everything. Just about anything that actually matters in the world right now.
@wouter @aral @freakazoid I'm with Charles. You evidently have no fucking clue what free software is about.
@ben So what's your background then? Obviously you think you know better, so educate me. Why should I believe you, and not my 25 years of actual fucking experience in the field?
Or are you just someone else who believes "my beliefs are the only valid ones and if you disagree you're an idiot"? That way lies facism.
I've explained my opinions. It's OK if you disagree with them, and I'm happy to have a civilized discussion about them, but don't insult me just because you disagree.
@wouter "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." -Desmond Tutu
Nobody has to put words in your mouth. Your actions, or rather inaction, say them loud and clear. And for what, to get a few more contributors who will drive off others anyway?
Coward.
@ben 40 is a number, not an explanation, but you obviously are not interested in an actual conversation and only in more insults, so, plonk.
@aral well FOSDEM pretty much demonstrated their values last year.
https://www.onepict.com/20250119-cobbles.html
About that time they picked Jack Dorsey as a headliner.
https://www.onepict.com/20250122-mirror.html
I called for some transparency.
https://www.onepict.com/20250206-mirror.html
No Dorsey, Matrix got to talk instead. Oh and no transparency.
If you're not going to comment about the terrifying privacy violations, complicity in war profiteering, enshittifacation, and the onslaught of other abuses by an enormous company that is moving to dominate all of our lives... Then what is even the point of you?
And WHO, exactly, "doesn't care" about privacy, democracy, or freedom of expression? I'm an angry goose now: WHO DOESNT CARE?? And why, good heavens, WHY would you be so blithely comfortable in community with those people???
While we don't even have the freedom to breathe clean air, drink clean water, or get our other most basic needs met, while gestapo are abducting the neighbors and our world is actually BURNING, nothing can be free. Not a damn thing.
@violetmadder You seem upset, you should take a breather.
I can agree with people on the cause of Free Software without agreeing on all their other causes.
And I'm not saying which causes; I agree with most of what you say, though not quite as angrily. It's just that there's a time and a place for everything, and a conference about "free software" is not the same thing as a conference about "privacy", even if the two are related.
I also don't think things are quite that bleak, but then that might have something to do with me not being in the same country as you.
@violetmadder Also, my "I'm not going to comment on that in public" is specifically about the sponsorship for FOSDEM and is related to me being a FOSDEM organizer.
It should not be read as a "I think google is great and everything is fine" with a dog in a burning room.
There's a reason why I use firefox, duckduckgo, and my own mailserver, ffs
We're on a trajectory that's on track to kill BILLIONS of human beings, with a B, by the end of the century unless something massively changes. The world is burning and society is in the midst of collapse, but of course you live in conditions comfortable enough to not feel the intense urgency or alarm felt by others less privileged. Yet.
So yeah, you bet I'm fucking upset and no I'm not going to fucking tone police myself out for a goddamned breather. This patronizing look-how-I'm-calmer-than-you act here falls right next to the other unconscious self-owns that you don't even realize keep proving our points.
Staying totally chill, apolitical, detached, shiny, plastic, and magnanimous about sharing community with eugenicists, war profiteers, surveillance states, enshittifiers, planetwreckers, mass murderers, stalkers, oligarchs, etc etc etc is not something to be proud of.
I'm not apolitical for having different political opinions to you.
I have only so much time in a day to care, so I prioritise. If you go and organise a protest against Google and that manages to make them slightly less evil, more power to you. I might even join (if it's within my means to do so). But it's not something that keeps me up at night. It's not my priority.
I'm not saying your cause is wrong, just that there are other causes that I find more important.
In the mean time, while you go off and do all that, I'll sit here making sure you can actually do that without being spied upon, by contributing to an operating system you can trust to do what you want it to do, not what some shitty billionaire halfway across the world wants.
And I'll do it on my terms, which is that anyone can use what I produce for any purpose, because that to me is the most core of all cores to free software. And that includes you using
Because if you're going to insist I must be upset about your other causes, why stop there?
That's why I don't do it, and why I say that the cause of free software, *while related* to other causes, is still not the same.
@violetmadder
@freakazoid @wouter @aral imagine calling a Debian developer a "tech bro". Check yourself, Charles.